The part about there being no space to just not like how we look sometimes reminded me of one of my fav tweets by Charlie bardey lol - “sometimes I don’t really like the way I look. Well, not my problem”. Ain’t that the truth
I’m not done listening yet, enjoying the convo!! but just wanted to jump in about the gender divide being discussed as a young millennial who works with teens…I think there is a difference in our generation like the one you pointed out around the license photo (maybe not as many boys were watching antm and then practicing their poses hahaha), but I do not think there is not as much of a gender divide like that in younger generations bc of the front facing camera etc. the beauty standards are different, but I see lots of 15 yo boys constantly posing or trying to pose correctly for Instagram/snap etc…. the media conversations around mewing and looksmaxxing are all part of that. I also think considering this from a race and class perspective would add a lot of nuance as well… who does society allow to not care about their appearance… anyways maybe this will pop up! excited to finish the ep
Yes totally agree with all of this! I've written a bit before about how our increasingly visual culture has essentially created a contagion situation, where no one of any gender or age or whatever is free from the pressure to perform beauty. Have you read Thick by Tressie McMillan Cottom? I reference it in the episode, and it's an incredible resource for the race and class components of the larger beauty culture conversation. Wish we'd touched on it more in our convo x
So much to dig into here, I’m definitely going to listen to it again. Just wanted to say that you and Jessica are the combined force behind me FINALLY giving up make up about 6 months ago. I never wore much (not the point), but still felt obliged to put in a little effort to “maximize my looks” on a daily basis. No one in my life can tell the difference, which just drives home what a needless waste of time and anxiety it all was. I’m still in the honeymoon phase of realizing I can (and do!) walk out the door at any moment regardless of how I look. Sounds so basic, but feels revelatory. Anyway, thanks, as always, for the thoughtful work!
Haha, thanks! Your point about freeing up mental energy by removing the choice really resonated with me. For the first couple weeks, I kept questioning whether I really “could” go make-up free that day (who did I need permission from??). But now that I’ve fully committed, I just glance in the mirror after brushing my teeth and go. Even with a pimple! Even when the only colour on my face is under my eyes and around my nose! Even to an important work event! Even to dinner at a trendy restaurant! This is freedom.
wow i love the idea of crows feet as scapegoat for the larger systemic fear of aging and death. it’s also why i love that jessica ends her newsletter posts with “you’re gonna die someday no matter how young you look”
“there’s going to be so many ways that you’ll change (throughout life and not recognize and know yourself) and i think we need better coping mechanisms for that” dang……
This was a really helpful listen. I recently have fallen into a lower bleph hole on tik tok (I have always had pronounced eye bags) and had started thinking, what if? But on good days I like my face and have historically just accepted that this is what I look like, and have been pretty anti cosmetic work. It’s helpful to remember I wouldn’t always like my face even if I got work done. Additionally, my mom’s whole side of the family has the same eye bags, and I think it’s kind of nice to be so obviously related in that way. We’re just a group of tired looking people, but we’re tired looking *together*. :)
Hugely relate to the genetic eye bags. My sister always says we’ll get them done together in 20 years or so, which is a comforting thought, but I feel like once you start trying to improve your face you also become more harshly critical of it. I’ve basically stopped wearing makeup, partly because I suffered through years of acne and concealer and it’s a relief to feel able to, but also because I’m more critical of a face I have painted to become prettier especially if the desired effect isn’t achieved.
Yes totally, or for me seeing my face change from no makeup to makeup was disorienting I think!! It gets to the concept of change we discuss in this ep—I think one of the biggest impacts quitting makeup had on me was no longer seeing my face *change* so much day to day (between wearing and not wearing makeup), and therefore getting used to my face in a new way because it always looked the same!
Yes so true, like when people with filler or eyelash extensions think they look hideous without them because they’re so accustomed to it. So much of it is in the mind! I was forced to get used to my face by parenting too, it’s a cliche but I’m happy if I’m able to moisturise let alone add makeup
This was such a great episode. Maybe Baby introduced me to Jessica DeFino's work, maybe the first time she was on your podcast?, and I really really value your discussions then and here. You give me vocabulary to talk about things I have been feeling my entire adult life.
I have also always been a little obsessed about how much time/money/energy cis women put towards beauty and can't help but wonder where we'd all be if that was all put towards less shallow pursuits. I don't want to use the word shallow because it sounds mean, but honestly I can't think of something better. Time, money and energy are limited resources. We need to use them wisely.
I totally get your point, but personally wouldn't describe the pursuit of beauty as shallow so much as misdirected. What most of us are trying to get from beauty--happiness, acceptance, consideration by others, confidence--aren't shallow things to want, but it's clear that beauty isn't a sustainable or reliable way of getting those things.
This was one of the best pods from Maybe Baby. Such a smart and fearless approach to such a pertinent topic for me and i’m sure many people. Nonjudgmental and deep- why I love this newsletter.
my partner often says “until people start getting nose jobs that make their noses bigger, we can probably assume people are doing it for the wrong reasons” ie not self expression/for the self
I loved this conversation. I consider myself pretty body/face neutral (though my recent post-birth body changes have REALLY been testing me - it has been an interesting peek into how an overall more aged self might look/feel and how it might impact me, although this is more extreme in a way because it was so fast (I'm mostly talking about my boobs lol)).
I still find myself sometimes tempted by the idea that there could be a way to get some healthy/moral/genuine extra confidence via relatively normalized procedures like facials, botox, always having nails done, or even just using more serums, etc.
I guess for me there's a hard-to-shake feeling that some of this more common (but still expensive!) stuff actually counts as basic self care these days, and are things that "women who value themselves" bother doing.
Jessica! I also have sticky-out ears that I used to detest but now I LOVE them! Until I was ~25 I was really self-conscious and thought that it was the first thing everyone noticed. I played a lot of sports as a kid and always tried to keep one of those soft fabric headbands over my ears whenever possible (which was so ridiculous and impractical). I had thought about getting the surgery for years but then, seemingly all of a sudden, I just...stopped considering it. My theory is that I got a bunch of ear piercings over the course of many years and I think I wanted to show them off. This probably should have been obvious to me, but I learned later that tattooing/piercing something you're self-conscious of can do that. Now I wear a bunch of silver hoops and I must say I think they look cooler for being on my sticky-outies. I can't say for sure that's what happened - likely a combo of many factors including the comfort that accompanies aging and a shift to more of an interest in looking interesting/stylish than "pretty"! I'm so enamored by my own ears now that at a recent work baby shower when we played a game of "match the baby picture to the adult," and my coworkers joked that they could tell which baby was me because of my ears, I was beaming and laughing with them (would have brought me to shamed, hot tears in my younger years!). Also, alll 14 of my first cousins on one side of my family have the mouse ears -- so if the ear genes aren't as strong in your family, know that you're in good company :)
Anyway here's the link to my substack "all the better to hear you with, my dear" (just kidding)
When I was a kid I remember having a kid in my class with sticky-out ears, and I thought they looked so cool that I spent significant time folding my ears over in the hopes that they would stay that way and stick out more, LOL.
i love this so much. i remember i had a super tall friend (i am 5’3”!) and she had big feet and i always wished for big feet because i thought it would mean i’d be tall. i just loved her big feet lol. and even now i watch a show and i see someone’s deep wrinkle between their eyebrows and find it charming and beautiful on them even though i entertain the idea of getting botox to make mine less visible (not anymore really, but sometimes i would hyperfixate on it). anyway, realizing that maybe other people might find my deep wrinkle charming gave me a roundabout way of loving and appreciating these normal “flaws” on myself.
This conversation and debate became more of a personal investment to me after having a daughter who is now four, and who I can already forming ideas and impressions around beauty. It breaks my heart and deeply confuses me hearing her say things like she wants to have straight her and not curly hair or looking at images of princesses and saying things like “I want to be beautiful like them,” when she has never been told otherwise, and we have never even talked about beauty or placed importance on it. As soon as they enter the world they are inundated with images of “beauty” and what it should look like in an ideal and honestly that’s scary because this is still without the powerful effect of social media. I look at boys in her class who seem unbothered about appearances, and it truly awoke in me that this conversation isn’t something that can just be treated casually. It also feels like so much pressure and weight to be the one force working against so many in her future to try to convince her that she is valuable and worthy just as she is and that she doesn’t and won’t have to change herself.
Thank you both for the many rich thoughts and questions. I listened to this while cleaning my daughter’s preschool and cried several times. And so many references that I now want to look deeper into… I’m making a reading list from this conversation : )
This is a follow up question directed to any other readers out there who have facial hair as a cis female… how do you get over it??? Not talking about a few chin hairs that need to be plucked every six months but like real moustache / jawline dark hair sitch. Everything else about beauty shiz I can easily ignore, I feel ugly some days and it doesn’t bother me. For some reason my dark facial hair is my white whale and I haven’t been able to accept it. Any thoughts are appreciated.
I have some stiff hairs that grow at shocking rates out of my chin and I pluck them mindlessly all the time and have never thought twice about it! I must subconsciously put this under the "grooming" category, which I don't tend to overthink the way I do other beauty labor. Probably related to Taylor's point—men do it too! Not saying that you should remove the hair if you personally feel like it's something you want to challenge within yourself (really cool if so). Just that I think it's helpful to give yourself some grace/latitude when it comes to grooming preferences.
That said I don't shave my legs and I've definitely found that freeing (and challenging) over the years, so I absolutely get the appeal of resisting the cultural imperative to remove body hair as a woman. There's just something about facial hair that feels slightly distinct to me for some reason...definitely want to think about this more.
I'm with you! But I just pluck/shave my face and don't have any qualms about participating in beauty culture in this way because it's inexpensive, doesn't take long, and men are expected to participate in this way too (they're expected to shave daily) so I don't feel like it's engaging with unfair societal expectations.
Came here about facial hair too! I've got a real mustache and really was tortured as a feminist teen about what to do about it, with my mom (who's Arab genes are definitely where it came from haha) very much on the side of "cut your self some slack and just get laser" She was fully on board to pay it for too, and eventually I did do 1 or 2 sessions, but then covid happened and there was no way I was getting that close to a person unmasked, so I stopped. Now I alternate between shaving/plucking/bleaching or honestly most of the time leaving it be and going ugh when I look in the mirror and then just getting on with my day. So it was affirming to hear Jessica and Haley talking about how that's an option too! I have started considering laser again, mostly to just get it all over with and not having to think about the maintenance anymore but honestly not sure...
The part about there being no space to just not like how we look sometimes reminded me of one of my fav tweets by Charlie bardey lol - “sometimes I don’t really like the way I look. Well, not my problem”. Ain’t that the truth
I’m not done listening yet, enjoying the convo!! but just wanted to jump in about the gender divide being discussed as a young millennial who works with teens…I think there is a difference in our generation like the one you pointed out around the license photo (maybe not as many boys were watching antm and then practicing their poses hahaha), but I do not think there is not as much of a gender divide like that in younger generations bc of the front facing camera etc. the beauty standards are different, but I see lots of 15 yo boys constantly posing or trying to pose correctly for Instagram/snap etc…. the media conversations around mewing and looksmaxxing are all part of that. I also think considering this from a race and class perspective would add a lot of nuance as well… who does society allow to not care about their appearance… anyways maybe this will pop up! excited to finish the ep
Yes totally agree with all of this! I've written a bit before about how our increasingly visual culture has essentially created a contagion situation, where no one of any gender or age or whatever is free from the pressure to perform beauty. Have you read Thick by Tressie McMillan Cottom? I reference it in the episode, and it's an incredible resource for the race and class components of the larger beauty culture conversation. Wish we'd touched on it more in our convo x
lol at "we all want to express ourselves with the same C cup boobies"
So much to dig into here, I’m definitely going to listen to it again. Just wanted to say that you and Jessica are the combined force behind me FINALLY giving up make up about 6 months ago. I never wore much (not the point), but still felt obliged to put in a little effort to “maximize my looks” on a daily basis. No one in my life can tell the difference, which just drives home what a needless waste of time and anxiety it all was. I’m still in the honeymoon phase of realizing I can (and do!) walk out the door at any moment regardless of how I look. Sounds so basic, but feels revelatory. Anyway, thanks, as always, for the thoughtful work!
Honeymoon away!!! So happy for you
Haha, thanks! Your point about freeing up mental energy by removing the choice really resonated with me. For the first couple weeks, I kept questioning whether I really “could” go make-up free that day (who did I need permission from??). But now that I’ve fully committed, I just glance in the mirror after brushing my teeth and go. Even with a pimple! Even when the only colour on my face is under my eyes and around my nose! Even to an important work event! Even to dinner at a trendy restaurant! This is freedom.
wow i love the idea of crows feet as scapegoat for the larger systemic fear of aging and death. it’s also why i love that jessica ends her newsletter posts with “you’re gonna die someday no matter how young you look”
“there’s going to be so many ways that you’ll change (throughout life and not recognize and know yourself) and i think we need better coping mechanisms for that” dang……
This was a really helpful listen. I recently have fallen into a lower bleph hole on tik tok (I have always had pronounced eye bags) and had started thinking, what if? But on good days I like my face and have historically just accepted that this is what I look like, and have been pretty anti cosmetic work. It’s helpful to remember I wouldn’t always like my face even if I got work done. Additionally, my mom’s whole side of the family has the same eye bags, and I think it’s kind of nice to be so obviously related in that way. We’re just a group of tired looking people, but we’re tired looking *together*. :)
Hugely relate to the genetic eye bags. My sister always says we’ll get them done together in 20 years or so, which is a comforting thought, but I feel like once you start trying to improve your face you also become more harshly critical of it. I’ve basically stopped wearing makeup, partly because I suffered through years of acne and concealer and it’s a relief to feel able to, but also because I’m more critical of a face I have painted to become prettier especially if the desired effect isn’t achieved.
Yes totally, or for me seeing my face change from no makeup to makeup was disorienting I think!! It gets to the concept of change we discuss in this ep—I think one of the biggest impacts quitting makeup had on me was no longer seeing my face *change* so much day to day (between wearing and not wearing makeup), and therefore getting used to my face in a new way because it always looked the same!
Yes so true, like when people with filler or eyelash extensions think they look hideous without them because they’re so accustomed to it. So much of it is in the mind! I was forced to get used to my face by parenting too, it’s a cliche but I’m happy if I’m able to moisturise let alone add makeup
This was such a great episode. Maybe Baby introduced me to Jessica DeFino's work, maybe the first time she was on your podcast?, and I really really value your discussions then and here. You give me vocabulary to talk about things I have been feeling my entire adult life.
I have also always been a little obsessed about how much time/money/energy cis women put towards beauty and can't help but wonder where we'd all be if that was all put towards less shallow pursuits. I don't want to use the word shallow because it sounds mean, but honestly I can't think of something better. Time, money and energy are limited resources. We need to use them wisely.
I totally get your point, but personally wouldn't describe the pursuit of beauty as shallow so much as misdirected. What most of us are trying to get from beauty--happiness, acceptance, consideration by others, confidence--aren't shallow things to want, but it's clear that beauty isn't a sustainable or reliable way of getting those things.
Always love talking to you!! Thank you for having me 🙏🏻🙏🏻
My two favorite writers! Loved this convo and would enthusiastically listen to many more hours of ya’ll talking <3
This was one of the best pods from Maybe Baby. Such a smart and fearless approach to such a pertinent topic for me and i’m sure many people. Nonjudgmental and deep- why I love this newsletter.
second!!
thank goodness for jessica defino keeping me sane with her analysis of beauty culture 😭🫶🫶
my partner often says “until people start getting nose jobs that make their noses bigger, we can probably assume people are doing it for the wrong reasons” ie not self expression/for the self
lol love that
I loved this conversation. I consider myself pretty body/face neutral (though my recent post-birth body changes have REALLY been testing me - it has been an interesting peek into how an overall more aged self might look/feel and how it might impact me, although this is more extreme in a way because it was so fast (I'm mostly talking about my boobs lol)).
I still find myself sometimes tempted by the idea that there could be a way to get some healthy/moral/genuine extra confidence via relatively normalized procedures like facials, botox, always having nails done, or even just using more serums, etc.
I guess for me there's a hard-to-shake feeling that some of this more common (but still expensive!) stuff actually counts as basic self care these days, and are things that "women who value themselves" bother doing.
Jessica! I also have sticky-out ears that I used to detest but now I LOVE them! Until I was ~25 I was really self-conscious and thought that it was the first thing everyone noticed. I played a lot of sports as a kid and always tried to keep one of those soft fabric headbands over my ears whenever possible (which was so ridiculous and impractical). I had thought about getting the surgery for years but then, seemingly all of a sudden, I just...stopped considering it. My theory is that I got a bunch of ear piercings over the course of many years and I think I wanted to show them off. This probably should have been obvious to me, but I learned later that tattooing/piercing something you're self-conscious of can do that. Now I wear a bunch of silver hoops and I must say I think they look cooler for being on my sticky-outies. I can't say for sure that's what happened - likely a combo of many factors including the comfort that accompanies aging and a shift to more of an interest in looking interesting/stylish than "pretty"! I'm so enamored by my own ears now that at a recent work baby shower when we played a game of "match the baby picture to the adult," and my coworkers joked that they could tell which baby was me because of my ears, I was beaming and laughing with them (would have brought me to shamed, hot tears in my younger years!). Also, alll 14 of my first cousins on one side of my family have the mouse ears -- so if the ear genes aren't as strong in your family, know that you're in good company :)
Anyway here's the link to my substack "all the better to hear you with, my dear" (just kidding)
When I was a kid I remember having a kid in my class with sticky-out ears, and I thought they looked so cool that I spent significant time folding my ears over in the hopes that they would stay that way and stick out more, LOL.
i love this so much. i remember i had a super tall friend (i am 5’3”!) and she had big feet and i always wished for big feet because i thought it would mean i’d be tall. i just loved her big feet lol. and even now i watch a show and i see someone’s deep wrinkle between their eyebrows and find it charming and beautiful on them even though i entertain the idea of getting botox to make mine less visible (not anymore really, but sometimes i would hyperfixate on it). anyway, realizing that maybe other people might find my deep wrinkle charming gave me a roundabout way of loving and appreciating these normal “flaws” on myself.
Maybe Baby readers love you back Jessica Defino! A related podcast ep that reframed some of the ideas about beauty and power - https://www.diabolicalliespod.com/p/taylor-swift-injectables-and-other.
omg thank you for the rec, I went on to listen to the whole ep!
Haha thank you!! This ep has been on my list to listen to, thanks for the reminder xx
This conversation and debate became more of a personal investment to me after having a daughter who is now four, and who I can already forming ideas and impressions around beauty. It breaks my heart and deeply confuses me hearing her say things like she wants to have straight her and not curly hair or looking at images of princesses and saying things like “I want to be beautiful like them,” when she has never been told otherwise, and we have never even talked about beauty or placed importance on it. As soon as they enter the world they are inundated with images of “beauty” and what it should look like in an ideal and honestly that’s scary because this is still without the powerful effect of social media. I look at boys in her class who seem unbothered about appearances, and it truly awoke in me that this conversation isn’t something that can just be treated casually. It also feels like so much pressure and weight to be the one force working against so many in her future to try to convince her that she is valuable and worthy just as she is and that she doesn’t and won’t have to change herself.
Thank you both for the many rich thoughts and questions. I listened to this while cleaning my daughter’s preschool and cried several times. And so many references that I now want to look deeper into… I’m making a reading list from this conversation : )
This is a follow up question directed to any other readers out there who have facial hair as a cis female… how do you get over it??? Not talking about a few chin hairs that need to be plucked every six months but like real moustache / jawline dark hair sitch. Everything else about beauty shiz I can easily ignore, I feel ugly some days and it doesn’t bother me. For some reason my dark facial hair is my white whale and I haven’t been able to accept it. Any thoughts are appreciated.
I have some stiff hairs that grow at shocking rates out of my chin and I pluck them mindlessly all the time and have never thought twice about it! I must subconsciously put this under the "grooming" category, which I don't tend to overthink the way I do other beauty labor. Probably related to Taylor's point—men do it too! Not saying that you should remove the hair if you personally feel like it's something you want to challenge within yourself (really cool if so). Just that I think it's helpful to give yourself some grace/latitude when it comes to grooming preferences.
That said I don't shave my legs and I've definitely found that freeing (and challenging) over the years, so I absolutely get the appeal of resisting the cultural imperative to remove body hair as a woman. There's just something about facial hair that feels slightly distinct to me for some reason...definitely want to think about this more.
I'm with you! But I just pluck/shave my face and don't have any qualms about participating in beauty culture in this way because it's inexpensive, doesn't take long, and men are expected to participate in this way too (they're expected to shave daily) so I don't feel like it's engaging with unfair societal expectations.
Came here about facial hair too! I've got a real mustache and really was tortured as a feminist teen about what to do about it, with my mom (who's Arab genes are definitely where it came from haha) very much on the side of "cut your self some slack and just get laser" She was fully on board to pay it for too, and eventually I did do 1 or 2 sessions, but then covid happened and there was no way I was getting that close to a person unmasked, so I stopped. Now I alternate between shaving/plucking/bleaching or honestly most of the time leaving it be and going ugh when I look in the mirror and then just getting on with my day. So it was affirming to hear Jessica and Haley talking about how that's an option too! I have started considering laser again, mostly to just get it all over with and not having to think about the maintenance anymore but honestly not sure...