(81 mins) | This week’s podcast is special because the guest is my friend and comedian Catherine Saint Siena, whom I was this close to starting a podcast with earlier this year before everything imploded, so I’m considering this ep a peek into a parallel universe. For the first time I’ve split this one into two parts. This first one is all about workism: the American zeal for work-as-identity, the unlikely impacts of that, the ways we’ve felt it, and how we want to challenge it. (In case you missed it, I answered a question about this in my last newsletter.)
loved this but was surprised you didn't mention/empower listeners to organize and UNIONIZE their workplaces! if you feel exploited and have workplace grievances, you're probably not the only one. talk to your coworkers! there's power in numbers! its a difficult and intimidating process, but can also be incredibly enriching and rewarding. obviously there need to be more workplace protections on a legal level, but those demands have more weight behind them when they're made by an already more organized workforce.
Loved listening to this from something of an outsider’s perspective (i.e not American, also I refuse to work more than the full time equivalency of 38 hours per week as mandated by the Australian government even when I’m asked).
That being said, from time to time I definitely experience the same classic working feelings of unfulfillment that precipitated you both moving to NYC. Interestingly though I’ve never felt the compulsion to do my equivalent of crazy dream grand gestures, partly because following the Formula 1 around the world so I can just...hang out...is not really a career pathway, but also because my response has always veered in another direction - to keep hold of the regular, sometimes boring/annoying job, and instead reflect on areas of my life which, when changed, would pose less risk to my financial independence and stability in general. Take up a mad new hobby, start a class, volunteer in a new community. I find by doing the latter it really helps to reinforce the general thesis that I try to abide, and which Catherine summarised about work ideally just being something you do to generate income so you can take care of yourself.
I could also go on further about the human rights abuse that is the US healthcare system in general but I have no idea where to start or finish. I will now proceed to hug deeply the Not Perfect But Still Very Good and FREE Australian public healthcare system and never get angry at waiting 30 minutes for my doctor’s appointment again.
Wow this episode was very timely for me . Thank you for this entire discussion. I am at a crossroads with my job (also very grateful to be employed this year) and thinking about all the things that are tied to employment/employability as y’all have mentioned. but just thank y’all for this. It was reassuring, empowering, totally a topic we all need to examine more as a society.
I work as student mentor at my university and my boss is officially called a "coach" (the online framework of this program was sprung up quickly because of the pandemic and has many flaws, often leaving the mentors feeling horrible -- re workism, lack of clarity, student identity etc). Catherine hit too close to home with that passing comment near the end lol. The idea of using the word coach, in lieu of supervisor or boss, was something I'd only cringed at but never given any additional thought to. Excited for part deux on relationships and such
really enjoyed this episode and resonated with so much talked about here, thank you Haley and Catherine! I'm especially intrigued by the discussion on how Americans think they deserve nothing as citizens/human beings and everything is redirected/rebranded as individual responsibility and personal effort. just wanted to share a notion posed by T.H.Marshall on rights and social vs political vs civil citizenship, where he considered "the collective right to economic welfare and social security" the highest expression of citizenship and individual freedom to be the lowest form of citizenship, which i think is very interesting.
also - i think you guys should definitely check out the 2019 album "office politics" by the divine comedy, it's a full 16-song album on the absurdity and existential dreads in corporate culture. It's so good.
As a scholar of Marxism and trajectories of capitalism in the US, and also an American expat living in Berlin I really appreciate these thoughts and perspectives, your way of formulating and integrating so many different topics. ALSO I thought paying 100 euros a month was a lot! ... & there are no copays. Trying to decide whether to move back, but fuck.
Loved this episode, and couldn’t help but think Ponzi scheme when you mentioned the pattern of those in power being more willing to exploit others because they too were exploited at some point early in their own careers. I think that pattern occurs pretty frequently in the more structured, hierarchical social systems we have in our society (Greek life, sports teams, etc.). Last week two of my oldest friends reached out to invite me into a virtual “women’s group” they’re a part of - all I had to do to join was Venmo a stranger $234. My friends seemed oblivious to the fact that they were stuck in a pyramid scheme, and actually claimed that it was a “feminist, anti-capitalist gifting economy.” It really struck me that a scheme that functions through preying on vulnerable people and exploiting something like 88% of those who buy in just to serve those at the top of the pyramid is being sold as anti-capitalist. What is especially sad to me is that now my friends are trying to pull people into the scheme and unwittingly agreeing to the exploitation of others for the promise that they will receive 8 times what they paid - so long as they can find enough people to buy in. It seems like they truly believe that everyone who joins will receive the same return on their investment - which again reminds me of what you said about those who hold faith in capitalism because they believe they will someday end up billionaires. As it turns out, capitalism is the greatest Ponzi scheme of all.
Anyway - if anyone hears about a “blessing loom” meeting over Whatsapp and supplying daily affirmations and advice for the low low price of $234, run in the other direction.
I loved this episode, Haley! There were so many valuable topics covered (including the absolutely baffling refusal of Americans to accept healthcare as a basic human right), but there is a lingering question I have. One thing you began to touch on was that the ability to find a job that you're "passionate" about and/or detach your sense of worth from your work is inherently tied to the kind of job you do (or are able to do, or have access to). Separate from the "level" of the job (blue collar vs. white collar, entry-level vs. management, etc.), there is the nature of the work you're doing, i.e. who it affects and what it accomplishes. So while you could arguably "care less," as Catherine mentioned, about your corporate overlords at your entry-level marketing job, for example, how would this mentality apply to a social worker or a nurse? I spent a year as a middle school teacher in a public school district where I often worked 70-hour weeks and was paid for 40. I so often wanted to take time off for a vacation or just go to bed when I was still lesson-planning at 10 PM, but if I were to do that, it would affect 90 12- and 13-year-old children, many of whom came from underserved communities, and who relied on me every day for a sense of security and routine. I wonder how you think workism relates to jobs that have a distinctly human element, and how this further intersects with the fact that women, especially women of color, are disproportionately doing this kind of person-focused work, for which they are often vastly undervalued and underpaid?
I agree with so much you talk about re: Americans feeling like they don’t deserve anything (I certainly feel this way); the lack of healthcare being an absolute human rights crisis; the bankrupting of individuals from hospital bills or an education they were told they need (lack of real choice in spending); inadequate distribution of wealth; the meritocracy myth; the pervasiveness of nepotism; the lack of rights for workers—poor maternity leave, no mandatory days off, no sharing of the profits of their labor. It makes me want to crawl in a hole when I add it all up. On a personal level, I have student debt and dental bills (lol at the teeth and eye luxury comment), and so many days I feel like I’m just trying to survive and not end up poor like my parents. On a global level, I feel like I need to be taking action, helping my generation and future generations not feel the same helplessness I feel. There’s empowerment (and relief) in taking action, but it is overwhelming to me (or feels unfair) that not only do I have to work 40 hours a week to just survive, but in my free time if I want to see change, I need to be going to community meetings. It’s entirely a worthwhile endeavor, but it goes back to both of your points about the onus really being put on the individual—survive, rally for the change you want to see, etc. I think the pressure being put on the individual is also what separates us and pushes us to see each other as competitors for the resources we need to survive and not allies in a greater movement. Nothing has put this idea to sharper relief than in Parasite when at the same time that the wealthy family is rallying for their son’s last minute birthday party upstairs, the two families are in the basement literally trying to kill each other to survive.
I really enjoyed this episode! Catherine's comments about the joy of cooking dinner reminded me of thoughts I've been having recently about self-care. I think in our culture there is an obsession with productivity, and to take a break from that we often counteract that with consumption (social media, binge watching TV/eating/drinking) but really, the best type of anti-dote is non-judgemental creativity... i.e. having a hobby for the sake of a hobby, cooking dinner, making the bed and making a tidy home.
Second thought is that I just finished watching The Morning Show limited series on Apple TV+. I am curious if you've seen it and have any thoughts related to this topic because I think the show touches a lot on the American corporate grind and Puritan values.
One of my favorite episodes so far! Might even give it a second listen. Appreciated the critique of office language like "we're a family" (so brainwashy), and the acknowledgement that even creative jobs aren't necessarily fulfilling.
I've been taking a break (laid off in August) and know that I'll have to get back to work soon. I've been dreading it as I've never quite been fulfilled by the more-or-less creative work I've done at ad agencies. But it feels reassuring, moving forward, to have become more aware of these ideas of self-worth and the problems with "girl-bossing"etc. Hoping the ideas you mentioned someday permeate our structures beyond the individual.
Thanks again for the episode, and also wanted to echo another comment in that I enjoy the podcast's range of topics and moods. Totally doesn't need to be have a consistent format or tone for me to look forward to it. :) xx
loved this but was surprised you didn't mention/empower listeners to organize and UNIONIZE their workplaces! if you feel exploited and have workplace grievances, you're probably not the only one. talk to your coworkers! there's power in numbers! its a difficult and intimidating process, but can also be incredibly enriching and rewarding. obviously there need to be more workplace protections on a legal level, but those demands have more weight behind them when they're made by an already more organized workforce.
Loved listening to this from something of an outsider’s perspective (i.e not American, also I refuse to work more than the full time equivalency of 38 hours per week as mandated by the Australian government even when I’m asked).
That being said, from time to time I definitely experience the same classic working feelings of unfulfillment that precipitated you both moving to NYC. Interestingly though I’ve never felt the compulsion to do my equivalent of crazy dream grand gestures, partly because following the Formula 1 around the world so I can just...hang out...is not really a career pathway, but also because my response has always veered in another direction - to keep hold of the regular, sometimes boring/annoying job, and instead reflect on areas of my life which, when changed, would pose less risk to my financial independence and stability in general. Take up a mad new hobby, start a class, volunteer in a new community. I find by doing the latter it really helps to reinforce the general thesis that I try to abide, and which Catherine summarised about work ideally just being something you do to generate income so you can take care of yourself.
I could also go on further about the human rights abuse that is the US healthcare system in general but I have no idea where to start or finish. I will now proceed to hug deeply the Not Perfect But Still Very Good and FREE Australian public healthcare system and never get angry at waiting 30 minutes for my doctor’s appointment again.
Wow this episode was very timely for me . Thank you for this entire discussion. I am at a crossroads with my job (also very grateful to be employed this year) and thinking about all the things that are tied to employment/employability as y’all have mentioned. but just thank y’all for this. It was reassuring, empowering, totally a topic we all need to examine more as a society.
I work as student mentor at my university and my boss is officially called a "coach" (the online framework of this program was sprung up quickly because of the pandemic and has many flaws, often leaving the mentors feeling horrible -- re workism, lack of clarity, student identity etc). Catherine hit too close to home with that passing comment near the end lol. The idea of using the word coach, in lieu of supervisor or boss, was something I'd only cringed at but never given any additional thought to. Excited for part deux on relationships and such
really enjoyed this episode and resonated with so much talked about here, thank you Haley and Catherine! I'm especially intrigued by the discussion on how Americans think they deserve nothing as citizens/human beings and everything is redirected/rebranded as individual responsibility and personal effort. just wanted to share a notion posed by T.H.Marshall on rights and social vs political vs civil citizenship, where he considered "the collective right to economic welfare and social security" the highest expression of citizenship and individual freedom to be the lowest form of citizenship, which i think is very interesting.
also - i think you guys should definitely check out the 2019 album "office politics" by the divine comedy, it's a full 16-song album on the absurdity and existential dreads in corporate culture. It's so good.
As a scholar of Marxism and trajectories of capitalism in the US, and also an American expat living in Berlin I really appreciate these thoughts and perspectives, your way of formulating and integrating so many different topics. ALSO I thought paying 100 euros a month was a lot! ... & there are no copays. Trying to decide whether to move back, but fuck.
dev my fav episode so far, but I do love this pod for the myriad of range and idiosyncrasies
definitely my favourite episode so far—thanks for this Catherine and Haley!
Haley! You should check out the songwriter Ruth Garbus, I think you’d like her stuff, record is called “Kleinmeister”
Loved this episode, and couldn’t help but think Ponzi scheme when you mentioned the pattern of those in power being more willing to exploit others because they too were exploited at some point early in their own careers. I think that pattern occurs pretty frequently in the more structured, hierarchical social systems we have in our society (Greek life, sports teams, etc.). Last week two of my oldest friends reached out to invite me into a virtual “women’s group” they’re a part of - all I had to do to join was Venmo a stranger $234. My friends seemed oblivious to the fact that they were stuck in a pyramid scheme, and actually claimed that it was a “feminist, anti-capitalist gifting economy.” It really struck me that a scheme that functions through preying on vulnerable people and exploiting something like 88% of those who buy in just to serve those at the top of the pyramid is being sold as anti-capitalist. What is especially sad to me is that now my friends are trying to pull people into the scheme and unwittingly agreeing to the exploitation of others for the promise that they will receive 8 times what they paid - so long as they can find enough people to buy in. It seems like they truly believe that everyone who joins will receive the same return on their investment - which again reminds me of what you said about those who hold faith in capitalism because they believe they will someday end up billionaires. As it turns out, capitalism is the greatest Ponzi scheme of all.
Anyway - if anyone hears about a “blessing loom” meeting over Whatsapp and supplying daily affirmations and advice for the low low price of $234, run in the other direction.
I loved this episode, Haley! There were so many valuable topics covered (including the absolutely baffling refusal of Americans to accept healthcare as a basic human right), but there is a lingering question I have. One thing you began to touch on was that the ability to find a job that you're "passionate" about and/or detach your sense of worth from your work is inherently tied to the kind of job you do (or are able to do, or have access to). Separate from the "level" of the job (blue collar vs. white collar, entry-level vs. management, etc.), there is the nature of the work you're doing, i.e. who it affects and what it accomplishes. So while you could arguably "care less," as Catherine mentioned, about your corporate overlords at your entry-level marketing job, for example, how would this mentality apply to a social worker or a nurse? I spent a year as a middle school teacher in a public school district where I often worked 70-hour weeks and was paid for 40. I so often wanted to take time off for a vacation or just go to bed when I was still lesson-planning at 10 PM, but if I were to do that, it would affect 90 12- and 13-year-old children, many of whom came from underserved communities, and who relied on me every day for a sense of security and routine. I wonder how you think workism relates to jobs that have a distinctly human element, and how this further intersects with the fact that women, especially women of color, are disproportionately doing this kind of person-focused work, for which they are often vastly undervalued and underpaid?
I agree with so much you talk about re: Americans feeling like they don’t deserve anything (I certainly feel this way); the lack of healthcare being an absolute human rights crisis; the bankrupting of individuals from hospital bills or an education they were told they need (lack of real choice in spending); inadequate distribution of wealth; the meritocracy myth; the pervasiveness of nepotism; the lack of rights for workers—poor maternity leave, no mandatory days off, no sharing of the profits of their labor. It makes me want to crawl in a hole when I add it all up. On a personal level, I have student debt and dental bills (lol at the teeth and eye luxury comment), and so many days I feel like I’m just trying to survive and not end up poor like my parents. On a global level, I feel like I need to be taking action, helping my generation and future generations not feel the same helplessness I feel. There’s empowerment (and relief) in taking action, but it is overwhelming to me (or feels unfair) that not only do I have to work 40 hours a week to just survive, but in my free time if I want to see change, I need to be going to community meetings. It’s entirely a worthwhile endeavor, but it goes back to both of your points about the onus really being put on the individual—survive, rally for the change you want to see, etc. I think the pressure being put on the individual is also what separates us and pushes us to see each other as competitors for the resources we need to survive and not allies in a greater movement. Nothing has put this idea to sharper relief than in Parasite when at the same time that the wealthy family is rallying for their son’s last minute birthday party upstairs, the two families are in the basement literally trying to kill each other to survive.
I really enjoyed this episode! Catherine's comments about the joy of cooking dinner reminded me of thoughts I've been having recently about self-care. I think in our culture there is an obsession with productivity, and to take a break from that we often counteract that with consumption (social media, binge watching TV/eating/drinking) but really, the best type of anti-dote is non-judgemental creativity... i.e. having a hobby for the sake of a hobby, cooking dinner, making the bed and making a tidy home.
Second thought is that I just finished watching The Morning Show limited series on Apple TV+. I am curious if you've seen it and have any thoughts related to this topic because I think the show touches a lot on the American corporate grind and Puritan values.
One of my favorite episodes so far! Might even give it a second listen. Appreciated the critique of office language like "we're a family" (so brainwashy), and the acknowledgement that even creative jobs aren't necessarily fulfilling.
I've been taking a break (laid off in August) and know that I'll have to get back to work soon. I've been dreading it as I've never quite been fulfilled by the more-or-less creative work I've done at ad agencies. But it feels reassuring, moving forward, to have become more aware of these ideas of self-worth and the problems with "girl-bossing"etc. Hoping the ideas you mentioned someday permeate our structures beyond the individual.
Thanks again for the episode, and also wanted to echo another comment in that I enjoy the podcast's range of topics and moods. Totally doesn't need to be have a consistent format or tone for me to look forward to it. :) xx