I can totally understand why CRs comments would offend people who’ve had kids. It is offensive! I keep those views to myself or only share them with my child free friends. Equally my experience is exactly the same as CRs - I hear nothing but complaints from parents, about birth and birth injury, exhaustion, loss of personal identity etc. I suppose I find it annoying hearing parents complain about what CR says when they are often the ones providing the feedback that CR is using to form her own view. I don’t know who to trust!
I’m actually annoyed if parents are giving me a biased view (ie more negative than parenthood actually is), because of course that is going to inform my decision. Like, are they secretly keeping all the good bits secret from me? ;)
I just wish there was a better way to help people make an informed choice based on more than a leap of faith.
Are these parents your friends, or people on the internet? It makes sense TikTok would feed a young, child free person content that reinforces your decision to be child free, for example. Of course there are parents who are unhappy with their decision, and if that’s all the algorithm thinks you want, it will bias your view. But there is a ton of joyful parenting content on the internet too! And as I said in my earlier comment, offline (which is Haley’s whole point in the essay), I have yet to encounter a perspective from an actual parent that is so strong in either direction. I have several close friends who are parents now and all have expressed to me the challenges and hardships but also the joys and interest of their new role to me. All have maintained their identity and interests and can express nuanced views of the parenthood experience and also just talk about tons of other stuff with me besides being a parent! I’m curious whether your perspective has been formed in real-life conversation/spending time with parents you know well (and their kids!), or just from internet discourse. Not that it would change your decision to be child free, but it might provide you with the less biased view that you crave.
Real life parents - all my friends not online, I don’t use Instagram or any social media except this and LinkedIn for work. I do think, though, that their experience is affected by a lot of factors that isn’t necessarily about parenting per se, but parenting under circumstances like high costs of childcare, high rents (I live in London) and lack of support. I love kids and I love their kids. I have two lovely godchildren.
I am child free mainly because of the cost and because I don’t want to give birth. I don’t feel strongly about having a “child free” identity.
I really have heard very little positive personal accounts. And as I say, these are all my friends. I don’t know how objective they are being eg are they only sharing the negative and hiding the positive. I would rather there was more help or guidance for people who are unsure, that isn’t reliant on the internet (which as you say, is unreliable) or indeed friends, as you don’t really know what goes on in their life or if what bothers them will bother you.
I should also add. Many of the friends who aren’t enjoying it (or who seem not to be based on their accounts) don’t have supportive partners. So that’s another factor.
I do actually have one friend who does enjoy it immensely (despite challenges) - she has the money to get the childcare she needs, a supportive partner, a home that’s big enough for them all, and a job that she loves and which allows her to be part time and flexible around her kids.
So maybe the more interesting question is, what factors shape whether or not someone will enjoy having children?
Thanks for replying!! I'm sorry to hear you have friends who are struggling with parenthood, that sounds so hard. I agree about your last question being the right one!! I think it's often viewed as just personal preference, like do you/don't you want kids, but how much you'll enjoy being a parent depends sooooo much on external factors as well. All my friends who love being parents have supportive partners and/or flexible jobs and/or can afford to pay for external help, and that makes a world of difference. It's not lost on me that trying to parent on one's own would be a nightmare, esp. while trying to work and make ends meet, and it's literally not the way we've evolutionarily evolved to care for children. Childcare policies (not to mention healthcare) are particularly abysmal in the US, and I know the UK isn't much better. I have two parent friends in Germany and The Netherlands and I have been astonished at the free support and services they've gotten from the government for pregnancy and postpartum, and all the way through toddlerhood, it's fantastic. There's a tight relationship between parental satisfaction and their country's childcare policies! https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5222535/
Thanks for sharing! Yes totally agree it’s probably not about personal preference. Would be so interesting to repeat that study amongst wealthy vs poorer parents. I’d bet that wealthy parents would be happier as they can use finances to compensate for poor government social support. Although quite sad as it basically means you probs shouldn’t have kids if you’re not quite wealthy. Which is basically the conclusion I’ve drawn from observing my friends, who have varying financial means.
Agreed, but with the caveat that folks from lower SES backgrounds often live in closer proximity to family and have tighter knit communities, so there may be more familial assistance to counter the lack of paid assistance. But the disparity is still quite present in access to quality healthcare, schooling, extracurriculars, other paid household help, etc. which all lighten the burden of parenting. We need a shift in societal expectations for being the "village" for one another (in general, not just as it pertains to childcare!) as well as in expectations for adequate pay for labor and government support for social services (again, for everyone, but parents included). Both would make the prospect of parenthood less daunting.
lol I read the first few comments the day the essay came out and thought “damn this one really brought all the spicy opinions out of the woodwork!” Didn’t realize how much the convo had evolved until I read these descriptions of the kid divide podcast today!
Just wanted to pop on say how consistently I love how you try to find universal ideas in your writing over and over again, Haley! Thanks for always putting your writing out in the world for us to see. I don’t agree with all of your opinions all the time (who among us does agree with anyone else all the time?) but always i appreciate your thoughtful consideration of a diversity of topics! I thought this essay was a nice reframe of the majority of internet buzz about the CR comments. Personally was not triggered by her comments or your essay, but loved how you discussed the topic in a larger context and how some threads in this piece linked back to the purity vortex and all fours essays. Keep it up!! Appreciate you 💓
Looping back after reading this when initially posted to say wow, this piece really shifted something for me on the concept of gossip, especially the basic idea that you’re not supposed to hear shit-talk about yourself, and I genuinely feel like I’ve moved through the world a little lighter and more secure feeling these past few days? Thanks as always for your writing and taking the time to hash these thoughts out for us, and linking to past your work and broader reading. 🩷
Not currently a parent but considering becoming one, so both Chappell's comments and the backlash kind of rolled off my back tbh bc I'm not in either camp!! Haley, remember that people getting up in arms about your essay are doing exactly what you're critiquing in your essay but from the opposite perspective lol. Personally, I think it's fair you framed the broad brush with which Chappell painted parenthood as being related to naivety and youth!!! Which is not at all the same thing as saying she's just young and dumb and everyone eventually realizes motherhood is actually great, but instead that with more experience, most of us learn that there is a great deal of nuance in the happiness, fulfillment, and experience of both parents and non-parents across a lifetime and neither group is universally happy or miserable....Also I feel like she was just being cheeky in the way one often does when chatting with peers, "throwing a plate against the wall," like you said. It's not that deep!!! But interesting that it was taken that way by so many. Which is the whole point of your piece lmao anyway, I second those who have said they hope you're not still reading these, but if you are: <33333
At the risk of repeating what others have already said in support of Haley and this essay, I want to weigh in because I've been following this comment section closely and have a lot of thoughts!
At first when I read some of the critical comments here, I was like, "did they read the same essay as me? ... did they read the essay at all?" Nothing annoys me more than people who don't do the reading! But on second thought, I think people did read, but some of them are just too entrenched in their own frustrations/internet bubbles to interpret the essay with the generosity it deserves. (And were failing to recognize the inherent generosity of the essay itself, thereby missing the entire point!)
Fwiw, as gen z baby a couple years younger than Chappell Roan, I see a lot of people my age railing against parenthood or making extreme/blunt comments like CR not because they're actually critical of parents, but because they're trying to separate themselves from that phase of life and the fear that comes with getting older and having to make serious choices like marriage, children, etc. It can also feel freeing as a woman to be like, yeah that doesn't interest me! that sounds awful! A frequent form of gossip that often comes up among my friend group is "omg, so-and-so from middle/high school just had a baby! can you believe it? I can't even IMAGINE." Lol. We're not judging the people who had the baby, we're pointing out that we feel worlds away from that experience and want to feel validated in feeling that way!
I remember being 22 or 23 (not that long ago) and telling my family I'd never have children, that nothing sounded worse or more unpleasant to me. This was me experimenting with my identity and values more than anything else (an important function of gossip, as Haley points out). I now feel way more ambivalent about everything, but I see my friends going through these same processes all the time. We all just want to feel secure in our identity and our choices!
Also, as someone who has nieces and nephews (who are the true highlights of my life), Haley's writing on motherhood has helped me become more thoughtful and intentional about the way I approach communication with my siblings, because yeah, I truly *don't* know what it's like! And that doesn't mean that I'm stupid or inconsiderate, it just means that I haven't had the experience. Now, whenever I find myself feeling slightly critical of a parent, or annoyed with a sibling who's a parent, I stop and consider whether my criticism is valid as someone who hasn't been through it.
I want to also echo what others are saying in that I've *never once* felt that Haley's writing was condescending, and I say this as a longtime loyal reader! I am also someone who is sensitive to being condescended to, because I've been a little sister my whole life (lol).
<3 Thanks Haley for keeping these comments open and being incredibly gracious, even towards readers who were (I think) unnecessarily harsh!!
It’s easier to be reactionary and angry than curious and take a pause. I’ve been thinking about this often when I feel inflamed- and the CR discourse reminded me of it.
I mentioned it offhand my parents and they simply said “why do you care she’s in her 20s and her perspective is entirely different than yours” and I thought.. huh! Nice to just let it roll like that. Why would I care? Just to participate? It’s an exhausting thing any way you slice it. I appreciate you writing about it and I have enjoyed hearing all of your thoughts on motherhood 🌟
Lots of interesting discourse in the comments about this, I can’t see anything condescending about your article at all, actually I find it to be a freeing and refreshing perspective in a world that really wants to tear down moms for some reason? But I am in the category of new mom.
I do see the side of the reaction for non moms to feel condescended upon when moms talk about momming. I have felt that way before. think it’s very complex and hard to explain. I think it’s true that it’s impossible to understand the experience of transitioning into motherhood unless you go through it. It just can’t be explained in words somehow? Or even when it is, it just doesn’t compute? It can’t be processed fully in some way? I can’t explain it. Rachel Cusk describes this in her memoir A Life’s Work really elegantly. Which also is a fabulously hilarious book and so interesting that it received so much backlash. But I digress…. At least in my experience, I heard what was said about being a parent, I’d read about the good and the bad, but I was wholly unprepared. It’s like trying to explain a color that another person’s eyes physically can’t perceive. The feelings are so intense, and your brain literally reorganizes itself. Once you pass into motherhood, at least in my experience, you learn and feel things you never could have comprehended or imagined before. I knew I would love my baby but I could never have envisioned what that love feels like. It’s a new world. And a lot of hormones. I think that can come across badly when one tries to explain it, I can’t explain it myself without coming across as “I have forbidden knowledge that you can only possess if you cross onto this side” but it’s not meant to be like that! But it kind of is like that?? But not in a bad way!! I don’t know! It’s complex. Herein lies the problem. I’m excited to listen to your recently released podcast about the kid / no kid divide.
Anyway, just here to say I love your writing on motherhood. I love that you write about lots of things and motherhood is one of them, and I appreciate how your identity/ perspective as a mom is woven into your writing in a way that feels genuine but not all encompassing. I feel seen by your writing. Thank you 🙏
Yesssss as a fellow new mom I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of this! Thank you for expressing it.
I also think that motherhood is the first “unfathomable” chasm many of us face - not the ONLY one by any means, it just looms especially large. For me, my first profound sense of “un-understandability” had to do with health (and so much of new parenthood feels reminiscent of that). As someone who’s struggled to convey the experience and impact of chronic illness, there’s almost this weird uncanny valley where people hear what I’m saying and *think* they can relate, but don’t fully get it. Like, rolling your ankle is not the same as a spontaneous dislocation, but it’s often the only anchor point. We’re all absorbing everything through our own experiences and lives, no matter how curious and imaginative and empathetic we may be!
Reading through these comments, I just want to say: your writings on motherhood (at *every* step of the way, from TTC to pregnancy to childbirth/first 24-48 hours, to now) have felt deeply essential to me. I am now 20W pregnant and prior to ttc, I was searching for a deeper understanding of motherhood that I only ever got through this Substack.
Allow me to emphasize: I could not find what I was looking for ANYWHERE else on the internet. It was only after following you for a few years and reading every word you wrote/listening to every word you said about motherhood that I felt empowered to make the decision to start trying. You were not the only factor but you were among maybe 6 puzzle pieces that ultimately came together that led to my decision to take my IUD out.
All this to say, thank you for all your contributions to this subject matter! I appreciate you ❤️
Emily 😭 Honored doesn't even cover it! Thank you so much. I feel so insanely lucky to be able to connect with you and other people in this same phase of life. It feels deeply essential to ME in return. Sending lots of love and solidarity at 23(?) weeks!!
Couldn’t agree with this more. Currently 39 weeks and Maybe Baby is a critical touchstone in my motherhood journey. I would pay good money for *more* baby content. The conversations you’ve had with Avi, in particular, have been listened and relistened to with my husband as we prep for parenthood!
The fact that this comment was left 3 weeks ago and you were 39 weeks has me near tears...congratulations!!!!!!! So so happy to be connecting with you and always excited to hear people are down for more baby content (lol)
I have a 9 month old and I remember doing the exact same thing when I was getting ready to have my baby! Haley was the down to earth, real voice I needed and felt like someone on a similar wavelength both in life and with her partner as me (and I had so few mom friends who I felt like that with). It was so refreshing to hear her candid experiences of motherhood before I had my own. Also congrats Caitlin! You’ve got this!! 🫶🏼
I love hearing all your thoughts on motherhood! I'm at a life stage in which I want the experience and know I'll enjoy it but the jump off into the unknown feels so scary. Listening to your podcast/reading your newsletter has brought such humanizing discourse that has been so helpful. I've left feeling like - ok they're doing it and lead interesting lives, so can I! So thank you!!
Haley, my hope is that you aren't even looking at these comments anymore, but if you are, I want to add to the weight of the child-free commenters thanking you for your writing about motherhood. What you wrote about online vs. the real world really resonates with my own experiences as a child-free gal with friends who are mothers. I love hanging out with their kids, who are literally... people... engaging with the public... just like the rest of us... You have a strong voice and perspective, duh, which is why so many of us have subscribed for so many years. It feels unfair to weaponize that against you, because it's why we all love to follow along!
Wow, I don't usually read the comments on your newsletters, but I was intrigued after you mentioned it, and now that I've read them I kind of regret it because it makes me disappointed in your reader community. Honestly, to everyone on here calling you "condescending" - what a load of crap. God forbid Haley be a HUMAN BEING with a PERSPECTIVE. I guess people don't actually want to hear others' perspectives, they just want to have their own biases confirmed. I think these kinds of comments actually speak to how good of a writer and cultural critic you are, Haley, because people take your work so seriously and so much to heart. My 2 cents is that, far from being condescending, your writing strikes a great balance between being gentle and cautious, and incisive and thoughtful. You are way more attentive to how your tone might come across than any other substack writers I follow, but not in a way that seems like you're sacrificing substance and clarity for appeasement.
I know you didn't refer to this in the pod email with the intent to fish for these comments, and I hope I'm not making you feel weird by adding to the chorus of late twenties childless commenters, BUT that being said, I was LITERALLY this morning referring to your writing in a conversation with coworkers because I have found it so illuminating about the process of deciding to have children and the ways you and Avi have navigated sharing the load of parenthood and intentionally going against the traditional division of labor.
While there are things I don't engage in as enthusiastically, like sleep training conversations, because they feel a little less relevant to my life (though also cool to read bc I am a birth doula!) I have overall found your writing about parenthood to be very insightful and helpful to read, and I refer to it in conversations often.
I thought your essay was really interesting for the broader takeaway around not everything being for you (like when someone comments on a recipe video with beans in it and says "what if i don't like beans") and just taking online discourse with a grain of salt.
That is all to say that I appreciate your work a lot and have really enjoyed learning from your parenting journey even as someone who doesn't have kids of her own and doesn't know if she ever will <3
I also frequently refer to your (Haley) content in conversations and find it insightful and well articulated. And like Madeline said, I don’t think you were fishing for these compliments but they might be helpful or comforting in the rawness that comes in the wake of this kind of comment section.
Just coming here to say that as a (currently? Maybe always? Who knows) child-free 30 year old, I have absolutely *loved* reading all your dispatches from parenthood and about the different philosophical/societal musings that becoming a parent has sparked for you, Haley. I am deeply grateful that you share them with your readers, and they always give me something new to consider about my own life, whether that’s about having children or not. Thank you for always writing with curiosity and compassion!
Totally agree that "gossip" is what that sort of talk is; it's what podcasts are all about. Podcasts offer an intimate setting where the hosts are literally trying to extract hot takes from their guests. Of course she'd push the boundaries and say the least metered version of that thought-- and she may or may not come to regret the specific phrasing given that it was actually a huge platformed convo vs. a parlor convo. But maybe the lesson here is that infighting among women about our choices (and feelings about those choices) sets us all back.
I am in my late twenties, childless, with no strong feelings about kids yet and no sense of urgency to develop those feelings in one direction or another, and must say I have never felt condescended to in any of your writing- on marriage, on motherhood, on your thirties, etc. In many cases I was shocked at what I didn't know, a feeling you have described encountering too. If anything, it feels to me that you have been generous in acknowledging how much readers may or may not know about the topics you investigate, and noting that others may arrive at different decisions or conclusions than you do. The proof is that your work has made me a much better friend. My best friend got pregnant last year in a sort of abrupt way and gave birth in December. I have to say, without your writing, there is no way I would have had the language to talk through her decisions with her and support her, or possibly (embarrassing to admit or think about) even the empathy for someone close to me choosing something so different from what I have chosen at our age (which is not actually that young to have kids in most places haha). Because of your work directly, I have been able to be a better and kinder friend and supporter, much better and more thoughtful and more helpful, she recently admitted to me, than she ever expected lol.
This resonates really deeply with me! I agree that Haley has given me a language I didn’t know I needed to talk with people who are pregnant and/or having kids. It’s been a very valuable perspective that has helped me connect better with other people!
Same! It all has kind of just given context to what some of my closest friends are going through and has given me some ideas on how to provide support & encouragement even if I stay happily childless. I want to be in community with people who want to parent thoughtfully, and to support the kids in my community even if I am not a mom.
Reading some of the comments from people who feel more negatively in this thread often makes it feel like they are perceiving information/reflection as advice/judgment, while imo information about something you don't plan to do is just context about the world around us... something here I haven't tapped yet about how exposure to new information or different values can sometimes feel threatening?
God, I can’t imagine having a public format for people to respond to my ideas! I don’t envy the challenges that come with that.
Chiming in as a childless person to say that I deeply enjoy your writing and reflections on motherhood and life in general. I don’t know whether I will have children in the future or not, but I know that if I do, I will approach the subject very similarly to you, with heavy self awareness and analysis.
The things you analyze about motherhood, partnership, and life are very relatable and have helped me sort through my own thoughts, as you separate what you *really* believe, apart from the culture, the internet, your own internalized narratives, etc.
I recall a Dear Danny where you sorted through the idea of traditionally gendered chores that brought me back from the brink of a few fights with my partner because I do all the cleaning (he does all the cooking, a plan we’ve discussed and agreed on). We are getting married in a few months, and I have had a lot of reluctance to call him my fiancé as opposed to my partner, and tried desperately to plan non traditional elements into the wedding (religious trauma, etc, etc). Your writing, although you chose not to get married and I am not a mother, has helped me sort through those things as you navigate your own “neuroses”. Your discussion of motherhood just feels like an extension of what I’ve already come to know of you through your channel.
Basically, thanks, love it, and if you’re neurotic, so am I.
This is such a sweet and thoughtful comment, thank you so much!! It means so much to me that we can still connect on such fundamental things despite currently being in different circumstances. <3 to my neurotic sister
Also not the point but really fascinated by a hard split between cooking and cleaning! That sounds so hard because theyre such big tasks with their own associated worlds...but potentially transcendent if it works..?!
Ha! The arrangement was partially inspired by the book Fair Play, where the author recommends “owning” tasks from start to finish so each partner can fully check out from a task/responsibility as much as possible.
We’re also trying to play to our strengths/preferences. My partner really enjoys cooking and works from home, so he has a bit more time to prep dinner when I get home from work. I get to hang out and decompress while he cooks, and it frees me from the guilt of feeling like I should step in and help. He also handles the grocery shopping and decides the meals for the week.
I destress by cleaning and have more time on the weekends (and partner is not on Substack so I’ll say it, I’m better at cleaning), so I do a big Sunday overhaul of the whole house and handle all the laundry, which is the task he hates the most. I’m in charge of buying cleaning products, refreshing bed linens, etc. While I’m cleaning, he hangs out and doesn’t feel like he has to engage either. It’s honestly working for us! Feels like we both have our jobs and we don’t both have to keep the running list of subtasks in our heads.
I'm chiming in very late (just re-subscribed to the Substack after a hiatus), but funnily enough, my partner and I intentionally avoid "owning" tasks because we really want to live as though we could potentially maintain our own households or live on our own if necessary.
We are not married, have different citizenship statuses, and are still debating whether we will ever "settle down" for good in a city (likely not?), so it seems prudent for each of us to remain comfortable doing all the chores, in case we have to maintain different households for a while. It also helps when one of us has to travel for a week or more and makes us feel less co-dependent (which began to happen naturally with us living together and me going back to school for a PhD). It's very interesting to hear that the hard split works for others, and I now want to go read this book haha.
That's amazing!! Sounds like the perfect split for you two, and I think they're really well-balanced too. So relaxing to not have to worry about either food or cleaning. What a load off!!
I can totally understand why CRs comments would offend people who’ve had kids. It is offensive! I keep those views to myself or only share them with my child free friends. Equally my experience is exactly the same as CRs - I hear nothing but complaints from parents, about birth and birth injury, exhaustion, loss of personal identity etc. I suppose I find it annoying hearing parents complain about what CR says when they are often the ones providing the feedback that CR is using to form her own view. I don’t know who to trust!
I’m actually annoyed if parents are giving me a biased view (ie more negative than parenthood actually is), because of course that is going to inform my decision. Like, are they secretly keeping all the good bits secret from me? ;)
I just wish there was a better way to help people make an informed choice based on more than a leap of faith.
Are these parents your friends, or people on the internet? It makes sense TikTok would feed a young, child free person content that reinforces your decision to be child free, for example. Of course there are parents who are unhappy with their decision, and if that’s all the algorithm thinks you want, it will bias your view. But there is a ton of joyful parenting content on the internet too! And as I said in my earlier comment, offline (which is Haley’s whole point in the essay), I have yet to encounter a perspective from an actual parent that is so strong in either direction. I have several close friends who are parents now and all have expressed to me the challenges and hardships but also the joys and interest of their new role to me. All have maintained their identity and interests and can express nuanced views of the parenthood experience and also just talk about tons of other stuff with me besides being a parent! I’m curious whether your perspective has been formed in real-life conversation/spending time with parents you know well (and their kids!), or just from internet discourse. Not that it would change your decision to be child free, but it might provide you with the less biased view that you crave.
Real life parents - all my friends not online, I don’t use Instagram or any social media except this and LinkedIn for work. I do think, though, that their experience is affected by a lot of factors that isn’t necessarily about parenting per se, but parenting under circumstances like high costs of childcare, high rents (I live in London) and lack of support. I love kids and I love their kids. I have two lovely godchildren.
I am child free mainly because of the cost and because I don’t want to give birth. I don’t feel strongly about having a “child free” identity.
I really have heard very little positive personal accounts. And as I say, these are all my friends. I don’t know how objective they are being eg are they only sharing the negative and hiding the positive. I would rather there was more help or guidance for people who are unsure, that isn’t reliant on the internet (which as you say, is unreliable) or indeed friends, as you don’t really know what goes on in their life or if what bothers them will bother you.
I should also add. Many of the friends who aren’t enjoying it (or who seem not to be based on their accounts) don’t have supportive partners. So that’s another factor.
I do actually have one friend who does enjoy it immensely (despite challenges) - she has the money to get the childcare she needs, a supportive partner, a home that’s big enough for them all, and a job that she loves and which allows her to be part time and flexible around her kids.
So maybe the more interesting question is, what factors shape whether or not someone will enjoy having children?
Thanks for replying!! I'm sorry to hear you have friends who are struggling with parenthood, that sounds so hard. I agree about your last question being the right one!! I think it's often viewed as just personal preference, like do you/don't you want kids, but how much you'll enjoy being a parent depends sooooo much on external factors as well. All my friends who love being parents have supportive partners and/or flexible jobs and/or can afford to pay for external help, and that makes a world of difference. It's not lost on me that trying to parent on one's own would be a nightmare, esp. while trying to work and make ends meet, and it's literally not the way we've evolutionarily evolved to care for children. Childcare policies (not to mention healthcare) are particularly abysmal in the US, and I know the UK isn't much better. I have two parent friends in Germany and The Netherlands and I have been astonished at the free support and services they've gotten from the government for pregnancy and postpartum, and all the way through toddlerhood, it's fantastic. There's a tight relationship between parental satisfaction and their country's childcare policies! https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5222535/
Thanks for sharing! Yes totally agree it’s probably not about personal preference. Would be so interesting to repeat that study amongst wealthy vs poorer parents. I’d bet that wealthy parents would be happier as they can use finances to compensate for poor government social support. Although quite sad as it basically means you probs shouldn’t have kids if you’re not quite wealthy. Which is basically the conclusion I’ve drawn from observing my friends, who have varying financial means.
Agreed, but with the caveat that folks from lower SES backgrounds often live in closer proximity to family and have tighter knit communities, so there may be more familial assistance to counter the lack of paid assistance. But the disparity is still quite present in access to quality healthcare, schooling, extracurriculars, other paid household help, etc. which all lighten the burden of parenting. We need a shift in societal expectations for being the "village" for one another (in general, not just as it pertains to childcare!) as well as in expectations for adequate pay for labor and government support for social services (again, for everyone, but parents included). Both would make the prospect of parenthood less daunting.
lol I read the first few comments the day the essay came out and thought “damn this one really brought all the spicy opinions out of the woodwork!” Didn’t realize how much the convo had evolved until I read these descriptions of the kid divide podcast today!
Just wanted to pop on say how consistently I love how you try to find universal ideas in your writing over and over again, Haley! Thanks for always putting your writing out in the world for us to see. I don’t agree with all of your opinions all the time (who among us does agree with anyone else all the time?) but always i appreciate your thoughtful consideration of a diversity of topics! I thought this essay was a nice reframe of the majority of internet buzz about the CR comments. Personally was not triggered by her comments or your essay, but loved how you discussed the topic in a larger context and how some threads in this piece linked back to the purity vortex and all fours essays. Keep it up!! Appreciate you 💓
Looping back after reading this when initially posted to say wow, this piece really shifted something for me on the concept of gossip, especially the basic idea that you’re not supposed to hear shit-talk about yourself, and I genuinely feel like I’ve moved through the world a little lighter and more secure feeling these past few days? Thanks as always for your writing and taking the time to hash these thoughts out for us, and linking to past your work and broader reading. 🩷
Not currently a parent but considering becoming one, so both Chappell's comments and the backlash kind of rolled off my back tbh bc I'm not in either camp!! Haley, remember that people getting up in arms about your essay are doing exactly what you're critiquing in your essay but from the opposite perspective lol. Personally, I think it's fair you framed the broad brush with which Chappell painted parenthood as being related to naivety and youth!!! Which is not at all the same thing as saying she's just young and dumb and everyone eventually realizes motherhood is actually great, but instead that with more experience, most of us learn that there is a great deal of nuance in the happiness, fulfillment, and experience of both parents and non-parents across a lifetime and neither group is universally happy or miserable....Also I feel like she was just being cheeky in the way one often does when chatting with peers, "throwing a plate against the wall," like you said. It's not that deep!!! But interesting that it was taken that way by so many. Which is the whole point of your piece lmao anyway, I second those who have said they hope you're not still reading these, but if you are: <33333
At the risk of repeating what others have already said in support of Haley and this essay, I want to weigh in because I've been following this comment section closely and have a lot of thoughts!
At first when I read some of the critical comments here, I was like, "did they read the same essay as me? ... did they read the essay at all?" Nothing annoys me more than people who don't do the reading! But on second thought, I think people did read, but some of them are just too entrenched in their own frustrations/internet bubbles to interpret the essay with the generosity it deserves. (And were failing to recognize the inherent generosity of the essay itself, thereby missing the entire point!)
Fwiw, as gen z baby a couple years younger than Chappell Roan, I see a lot of people my age railing against parenthood or making extreme/blunt comments like CR not because they're actually critical of parents, but because they're trying to separate themselves from that phase of life and the fear that comes with getting older and having to make serious choices like marriage, children, etc. It can also feel freeing as a woman to be like, yeah that doesn't interest me! that sounds awful! A frequent form of gossip that often comes up among my friend group is "omg, so-and-so from middle/high school just had a baby! can you believe it? I can't even IMAGINE." Lol. We're not judging the people who had the baby, we're pointing out that we feel worlds away from that experience and want to feel validated in feeling that way!
I remember being 22 or 23 (not that long ago) and telling my family I'd never have children, that nothing sounded worse or more unpleasant to me. This was me experimenting with my identity and values more than anything else (an important function of gossip, as Haley points out). I now feel way more ambivalent about everything, but I see my friends going through these same processes all the time. We all just want to feel secure in our identity and our choices!
Also, as someone who has nieces and nephews (who are the true highlights of my life), Haley's writing on motherhood has helped me become more thoughtful and intentional about the way I approach communication with my siblings, because yeah, I truly *don't* know what it's like! And that doesn't mean that I'm stupid or inconsiderate, it just means that I haven't had the experience. Now, whenever I find myself feeling slightly critical of a parent, or annoyed with a sibling who's a parent, I stop and consider whether my criticism is valid as someone who hasn't been through it.
I want to also echo what others are saying in that I've *never once* felt that Haley's writing was condescending, and I say this as a longtime loyal reader! I am also someone who is sensitive to being condescended to, because I've been a little sister my whole life (lol).
<3 Thanks Haley for keeping these comments open and being incredibly gracious, even towards readers who were (I think) unnecessarily harsh!!
It’s easier to be reactionary and angry than curious and take a pause. I’ve been thinking about this often when I feel inflamed- and the CR discourse reminded me of it.
I mentioned it offhand my parents and they simply said “why do you care she’s in her 20s and her perspective is entirely different than yours” and I thought.. huh! Nice to just let it roll like that. Why would I care? Just to participate? It’s an exhausting thing any way you slice it. I appreciate you writing about it and I have enjoyed hearing all of your thoughts on motherhood 🌟
Lots of interesting discourse in the comments about this, I can’t see anything condescending about your article at all, actually I find it to be a freeing and refreshing perspective in a world that really wants to tear down moms for some reason? But I am in the category of new mom.
I do see the side of the reaction for non moms to feel condescended upon when moms talk about momming. I have felt that way before. think it’s very complex and hard to explain. I think it’s true that it’s impossible to understand the experience of transitioning into motherhood unless you go through it. It just can’t be explained in words somehow? Or even when it is, it just doesn’t compute? It can’t be processed fully in some way? I can’t explain it. Rachel Cusk describes this in her memoir A Life’s Work really elegantly. Which also is a fabulously hilarious book and so interesting that it received so much backlash. But I digress…. At least in my experience, I heard what was said about being a parent, I’d read about the good and the bad, but I was wholly unprepared. It’s like trying to explain a color that another person’s eyes physically can’t perceive. The feelings are so intense, and your brain literally reorganizes itself. Once you pass into motherhood, at least in my experience, you learn and feel things you never could have comprehended or imagined before. I knew I would love my baby but I could never have envisioned what that love feels like. It’s a new world. And a lot of hormones. I think that can come across badly when one tries to explain it, I can’t explain it myself without coming across as “I have forbidden knowledge that you can only possess if you cross onto this side” but it’s not meant to be like that! But it kind of is like that?? But not in a bad way!! I don’t know! It’s complex. Herein lies the problem. I’m excited to listen to your recently released podcast about the kid / no kid divide.
Anyway, just here to say I love your writing on motherhood. I love that you write about lots of things and motherhood is one of them, and I appreciate how your identity/ perspective as a mom is woven into your writing in a way that feels genuine but not all encompassing. I feel seen by your writing. Thank you 🙏
Yesssss as a fellow new mom I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of this! Thank you for expressing it.
I also think that motherhood is the first “unfathomable” chasm many of us face - not the ONLY one by any means, it just looms especially large. For me, my first profound sense of “un-understandability” had to do with health (and so much of new parenthood feels reminiscent of that). As someone who’s struggled to convey the experience and impact of chronic illness, there’s almost this weird uncanny valley where people hear what I’m saying and *think* they can relate, but don’t fully get it. Like, rolling your ankle is not the same as a spontaneous dislocation, but it’s often the only anchor point. We’re all absorbing everything through our own experiences and lives, no matter how curious and imaginative and empathetic we may be!
Reading through these comments, I just want to say: your writings on motherhood (at *every* step of the way, from TTC to pregnancy to childbirth/first 24-48 hours, to now) have felt deeply essential to me. I am now 20W pregnant and prior to ttc, I was searching for a deeper understanding of motherhood that I only ever got through this Substack.
Allow me to emphasize: I could not find what I was looking for ANYWHERE else on the internet. It was only after following you for a few years and reading every word you wrote/listening to every word you said about motherhood that I felt empowered to make the decision to start trying. You were not the only factor but you were among maybe 6 puzzle pieces that ultimately came together that led to my decision to take my IUD out.
All this to say, thank you for all your contributions to this subject matter! I appreciate you ❤️
Emily 😭 Honored doesn't even cover it! Thank you so much. I feel so insanely lucky to be able to connect with you and other people in this same phase of life. It feels deeply essential to ME in return. Sending lots of love and solidarity at 23(?) weeks!!
Couldn’t agree with this more. Currently 39 weeks and Maybe Baby is a critical touchstone in my motherhood journey. I would pay good money for *more* baby content. The conversations you’ve had with Avi, in particular, have been listened and relistened to with my husband as we prep for parenthood!
The fact that this comment was left 3 weeks ago and you were 39 weeks has me near tears...congratulations!!!!!!! So so happy to be connecting with you and always excited to hear people are down for more baby content (lol)
Thank you! I had my son just a few days later🥰
I have a 9 month old and I remember doing the exact same thing when I was getting ready to have my baby! Haley was the down to earth, real voice I needed and felt like someone on a similar wavelength both in life and with her partner as me (and I had so few mom friends who I felt like that with). It was so refreshing to hear her candid experiences of motherhood before I had my own. Also congrats Caitlin! You’ve got this!! 🫶🏼
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I love hearing all your thoughts on motherhood! I'm at a life stage in which I want the experience and know I'll enjoy it but the jump off into the unknown feels so scary. Listening to your podcast/reading your newsletter has brought such humanizing discourse that has been so helpful. I've left feeling like - ok they're doing it and lead interesting lives, so can I! So thank you!!
Haley, my hope is that you aren't even looking at these comments anymore, but if you are, I want to add to the weight of the child-free commenters thanking you for your writing about motherhood. What you wrote about online vs. the real world really resonates with my own experiences as a child-free gal with friends who are mothers. I love hanging out with their kids, who are literally... people... engaging with the public... just like the rest of us... You have a strong voice and perspective, duh, which is why so many of us have subscribed for so many years. It feels unfair to weaponize that against you, because it's why we all love to follow along!
Wow, I don't usually read the comments on your newsletters, but I was intrigued after you mentioned it, and now that I've read them I kind of regret it because it makes me disappointed in your reader community. Honestly, to everyone on here calling you "condescending" - what a load of crap. God forbid Haley be a HUMAN BEING with a PERSPECTIVE. I guess people don't actually want to hear others' perspectives, they just want to have their own biases confirmed. I think these kinds of comments actually speak to how good of a writer and cultural critic you are, Haley, because people take your work so seriously and so much to heart. My 2 cents is that, far from being condescending, your writing strikes a great balance between being gentle and cautious, and incisive and thoughtful. You are way more attentive to how your tone might come across than any other substack writers I follow, but not in a way that seems like you're sacrificing substance and clarity for appeasement.
I agree with this! I was shocked to hear that people consider Haley condescending?! Not how I interpret her work at all.
I should say, "disappointed in some members of your readership" - most people on here are lovely and thoughtful!
I know you didn't refer to this in the pod email with the intent to fish for these comments, and I hope I'm not making you feel weird by adding to the chorus of late twenties childless commenters, BUT that being said, I was LITERALLY this morning referring to your writing in a conversation with coworkers because I have found it so illuminating about the process of deciding to have children and the ways you and Avi have navigated sharing the load of parenthood and intentionally going against the traditional division of labor.
While there are things I don't engage in as enthusiastically, like sleep training conversations, because they feel a little less relevant to my life (though also cool to read bc I am a birth doula!) I have overall found your writing about parenthood to be very insightful and helpful to read, and I refer to it in conversations often.
I thought your essay was really interesting for the broader takeaway around not everything being for you (like when someone comments on a recipe video with beans in it and says "what if i don't like beans") and just taking online discourse with a grain of salt.
That is all to say that I appreciate your work a lot and have really enjoyed learning from your parenting journey even as someone who doesn't have kids of her own and doesn't know if she ever will <3
I also frequently refer to your (Haley) content in conversations and find it insightful and well articulated. And like Madeline said, I don’t think you were fishing for these compliments but they might be helpful or comforting in the rawness that comes in the wake of this kind of comment section.
Just coming here to say that as a (currently? Maybe always? Who knows) child-free 30 year old, I have absolutely *loved* reading all your dispatches from parenthood and about the different philosophical/societal musings that becoming a parent has sparked for you, Haley. I am deeply grateful that you share them with your readers, and they always give me something new to consider about my own life, whether that’s about having children or not. Thank you for always writing with curiosity and compassion!
Same same same!!
Totally agree that "gossip" is what that sort of talk is; it's what podcasts are all about. Podcasts offer an intimate setting where the hosts are literally trying to extract hot takes from their guests. Of course she'd push the boundaries and say the least metered version of that thought-- and she may or may not come to regret the specific phrasing given that it was actually a huge platformed convo vs. a parlor convo. But maybe the lesson here is that infighting among women about our choices (and feelings about those choices) sets us all back.
I am in my late twenties, childless, with no strong feelings about kids yet and no sense of urgency to develop those feelings in one direction or another, and must say I have never felt condescended to in any of your writing- on marriage, on motherhood, on your thirties, etc. In many cases I was shocked at what I didn't know, a feeling you have described encountering too. If anything, it feels to me that you have been generous in acknowledging how much readers may or may not know about the topics you investigate, and noting that others may arrive at different decisions or conclusions than you do. The proof is that your work has made me a much better friend. My best friend got pregnant last year in a sort of abrupt way and gave birth in December. I have to say, without your writing, there is no way I would have had the language to talk through her decisions with her and support her, or possibly (embarrassing to admit or think about) even the empathy for someone close to me choosing something so different from what I have chosen at our age (which is not actually that young to have kids in most places haha). Because of your work directly, I have been able to be a better and kinder friend and supporter, much better and more thoughtful and more helpful, she recently admitted to me, than she ever expected lol.
This resonates really deeply with me! I agree that Haley has given me a language I didn’t know I needed to talk with people who are pregnant and/or having kids. It’s been a very valuable perspective that has helped me connect better with other people!
Same! It all has kind of just given context to what some of my closest friends are going through and has given me some ideas on how to provide support & encouragement even if I stay happily childless. I want to be in community with people who want to parent thoughtfully, and to support the kids in my community even if I am not a mom.
Reading some of the comments from people who feel more negatively in this thread often makes it feel like they are perceiving information/reflection as advice/judgment, while imo information about something you don't plan to do is just context about the world around us... something here I haven't tapped yet about how exposure to new information or different values can sometimes feel threatening?
Omg I am sooooo touched by this 🥹 thank you so much. Also you sound like such a lovely friend!!
God, I can’t imagine having a public format for people to respond to my ideas! I don’t envy the challenges that come with that.
Chiming in as a childless person to say that I deeply enjoy your writing and reflections on motherhood and life in general. I don’t know whether I will have children in the future or not, but I know that if I do, I will approach the subject very similarly to you, with heavy self awareness and analysis.
The things you analyze about motherhood, partnership, and life are very relatable and have helped me sort through my own thoughts, as you separate what you *really* believe, apart from the culture, the internet, your own internalized narratives, etc.
I recall a Dear Danny where you sorted through the idea of traditionally gendered chores that brought me back from the brink of a few fights with my partner because I do all the cleaning (he does all the cooking, a plan we’ve discussed and agreed on). We are getting married in a few months, and I have had a lot of reluctance to call him my fiancé as opposed to my partner, and tried desperately to plan non traditional elements into the wedding (religious trauma, etc, etc). Your writing, although you chose not to get married and I am not a mother, has helped me sort through those things as you navigate your own “neuroses”. Your discussion of motherhood just feels like an extension of what I’ve already come to know of you through your channel.
Basically, thanks, love it, and if you’re neurotic, so am I.
This is such a sweet and thoughtful comment, thank you so much!! It means so much to me that we can still connect on such fundamental things despite currently being in different circumstances. <3 to my neurotic sister
Also not the point but really fascinated by a hard split between cooking and cleaning! That sounds so hard because theyre such big tasks with their own associated worlds...but potentially transcendent if it works..?!
Ha! The arrangement was partially inspired by the book Fair Play, where the author recommends “owning” tasks from start to finish so each partner can fully check out from a task/responsibility as much as possible.
We’re also trying to play to our strengths/preferences. My partner really enjoys cooking and works from home, so he has a bit more time to prep dinner when I get home from work. I get to hang out and decompress while he cooks, and it frees me from the guilt of feeling like I should step in and help. He also handles the grocery shopping and decides the meals for the week.
I destress by cleaning and have more time on the weekends (and partner is not on Substack so I’ll say it, I’m better at cleaning), so I do a big Sunday overhaul of the whole house and handle all the laundry, which is the task he hates the most. I’m in charge of buying cleaning products, refreshing bed linens, etc. While I’m cleaning, he hangs out and doesn’t feel like he has to engage either. It’s honestly working for us! Feels like we both have our jobs and we don’t both have to keep the running list of subtasks in our heads.
I'm chiming in very late (just re-subscribed to the Substack after a hiatus), but funnily enough, my partner and I intentionally avoid "owning" tasks because we really want to live as though we could potentially maintain our own households or live on our own if necessary.
We are not married, have different citizenship statuses, and are still debating whether we will ever "settle down" for good in a city (likely not?), so it seems prudent for each of us to remain comfortable doing all the chores, in case we have to maintain different households for a while. It also helps when one of us has to travel for a week or more and makes us feel less co-dependent (which began to happen naturally with us living together and me going back to school for a PhD). It's very interesting to hear that the hard split works for others, and I now want to go read this book haha.
That's amazing!! Sounds like the perfect split for you two, and I think they're really well-balanced too. So relaxing to not have to worry about either food or cleaning. What a load off!!