#55: Getting married, having kids, etc
#55: Getting married, having kids, etc
Maybe Baby is a free Sunday newsletter. If you love it, consider supporting it financially. For $5/mo, you’ll gain access to my monthly Q&A column, Dear Baby, as well as my weekly podcast. Maybe Baby is reader-supported, hence the lack of ads and sponsors. Thank you!
Good morning!
This week I’m sharing an excerpt from my upcoming podcast episode: “Marriage & kids (or neither) w/ Leslie Price,” in which I explore my hesitation around getting married and having kids with a deadpan friend who’s done both. Leslie, media veteran and cofounder of the newsletter Gloria for women entering midlife, was my editor at Man Repeller in 2017, back when her daughter Frankie was just six months old. “Don’t do it,” she would tell us through half-closed eyes whenever one of us brought up the topic of having kids. It was kind of a bit, but not totally. Prior to having one, Leslie was ambivalent about the idea, but decided to try because her husband, Andy, was not. Now Frankie is five, and as I consider my own decisions, I wanted to check in with Leslie about her feelings on marriage and parenthood now that she’s a little further in.
Below I’ve transcribed 15 minutes of our 1.5-hour conversation. In the full version we discuss everything from strange wedding traditions to what my mom said when I told her I might not get married to whether it’s possible to “regret” being a parent, and what Leslie personally lost and gained when she did. Going to jump in here right after Leslie told me the funny story of her husband Andy’s proposal. This excerpt has been lightly edited for clarity.
Leslie: I guess in general I kind of expected it, and we had talked about it, so it wasn’t like a thing he went out and did without us having a conversation about it. But I didn’t expect it then. Like, that setting was a surprise to me—a drizzly cold day in Berlin in the winter? Was a surprise.
Me: (laughs) Oh, Andy.
Leslie: I know. The decision to get married wasn’t hard for me though—I think the decision to have a kid was the hard one. You know? Like you can get married and decide you don’t want to be married anymore, but you can’t really decide you don’t want to have a kid anymore once you have a kid. (laughs) It’s like the one decision that’s permanent. There’s another person in the world, and you made that choice. So I thought a lot about the decision to have a kid. But the marriage decision I didn’t think about as much—we were already best friends, partners, and honestly, our relationship did not change materially after we were married.
Me: I want to talk to you about having a kid for sure, but let’s talk about marriage first. Because I texted you yesterday and I said, "Is marriage necessary?" And you immediately texted back, "No."
Which made me laugh, because I knew you were going to say that. I think, in terms of the marriage convo, there are popular arguments for and against, and there are two angles that I think are maybe slightly under-probed. The first is that we often view marriage as just an individual, myopic choice. Like, "Do I want to get married?" or "I want to get married." And we don’t as often think about it as participation in a tradition that ultimately shapes society and policy, which I think defangs some of the arguments for and some of the arguments against it. It reframes it. The second is that I think there is some bad-faith arguing going on, where people on opposing sides misconstrue, or maybe just misunderstand, each other’s perspectives. But I think some of the arguments for getting married make sense! As someone who is more on the skeptical side, I’ve tried to sort of engage with the arguments for it in good faith.
Leslie: Right.
Me: So, okay. Here are some of the popular arguments for and against that I could think of. I wrote some down. (laughs)
Leslie: Okay great.
Me: For pro-marriage, I think there are softer reasons like: it's making the "ultimate commitment"; you feel like a "family unit"; your relationship gets more respect from others; you get to throw a big fun party that celebrates your relationship; there's a sense of security in participating in a tradition; and I also think a lot of us are conditioned to want it—we grew up wanting it and therefore we just have this feeling that we want to get married, and that’s enough for some people. And then there are the harder reasons like: taxes; immigration; visiting each other in the hospital; you become a legal entity; it's expensive to leave which is another version of security (laughs).
And then on the other side, the cons: in terms of the actual wedding, it can be really expensive; it's an exploitative/capitalist enterprise that’s been sold to us by mostly corporations who stand to profit off of our continued belief in the institution; it has really sexist and racist roots; some believe it infringes on their freedom and independence; some people prefer that their relationship is a choice and they’re not “locked in” and maybe they think that's beautiful. And personally I feel like centering society around the nuclear family is maybe not the best way to organize us. I think a lot of these policies and traditions are unfair, and have historically left a lot of people out, and continue to. I think it encourages this idea that, you’re now a unit and now you care for each other. And as a result, there’s less of an emphasis on our communities and outside-marriage bonds.
Wow I didn’t think I was going to throw all of that out at once but I did!
Leslie: I’ve told you this before, but I never thought I was going to get married and I never thought I was going to have a kid. I can’t tell you why I thought that, I just never pictured it in my life. But I think a lot of the things I thought about marriage and the institution of marriage were kind of white, Christian, patriarchal marriage. Which is still kind of what is venerated, and when you talk about people being historically left out, in response many have fought to be let in. And I think that was interesting for me because, as someone who was raised with one flavor of feminism, which was white feminism, there was a lot of questioning of this stuff. But then I remember reading about people who wanted into marriage, and what marriage signified—it basically signified your humanity, and your value. And yet I had the privilege of being like, “I don’t want this thing.” I didn’t really think about a lot of that stuff before I got married, and I think that’s an interesting perspective, as someone who doesn’t have to work hard to be seen as "fitting into society" and who’s choices have been rewarded.
But you know, I think a lot of the things you said are valid reasons to not get married. Like, you can have security in a relationship without getting married, right? And I think getting married because it’s harder to get out of the relationship is probably not a reason to get married.
Me: (laughs) Right.
Leslie: And when you get older and you’ve gone through the phase where everyone got married for two years and you just went to weddings every weekend and then people start getting divorced and you realize how horrible getting divorced is….I don’t think getting married for security is the best reason to get married. And again, I didn’t think about this before, but marriage does confer on you a set of innate kind of privileges in our society right? Like when I was younger, I wasn’t really thinking, If he has a problem and we’re married, I’m not going to have to worry about whether or not they’ll let me into the hospital room. But then you start getting older, and people do start having health problems, you start thinking about some of this stuff, and then when you have a kid, you definitely start thinking about this stuff.
You don’t have to be married to have a lot of these rights—like, you can get these rights—but you’d have to go about doing that work, and when you get married, it’s like you go into a weird governmental office and you do paperwork and then they just give you all of these things! Which is kind of amazing, and I don’t even know the full extent of it because I’m not a lawyer, and I haven’t run into a lot of this stuff yet. But the thing that’s definitely been helpful for me has just been health insurance.
Me: Yeah that’s a big one.
Leslie: It’s a big one! And it’s not why we got married, but it’s a huge benefit! A crazy benefit. And again, you don’t necessarily have to be married, it depends on where you live I think, but it’s another thing that’s so amazing that you just get. And especially in our industry [media], where the employment is so tenuous.
Me: Yeah. You can get it through a domestic partnership too, but it’s not as big of a benefit.
Leslie: Right. That’s not the reason why Andy and I got married, but I know a lot of people who made the choice because of insurance. I mean, it goes back to: we live in a society. Is this the best thing for society? No. But if you really need insurance, you might have to make that choice.
Me: Right. It’s one of those classic questions of like working within the system versus critiquing it from the outside. I wouldn’t blame anybody for wanting these benefits when they’ve been taken away from them or not given to them—that makes complete sense to me. The question to me is like: Is our goal that everybody is able to do this? Or is the goal for these benefits to not be gatekept according to your sex life, which feels like a weird thing for the government to be so involved in...
Leslie: It is.
Haley: But to your point about security, to maybe understand people who think of marriage as security—the way I’m heard it explained...actually, you know what I’m thinking of, which is ironic because Ira Glass is now divorced (laughs), but he had a little monologue that went around about marriage like 10 years ago, do you remember this?
Leslie: (laughs) No.
Me: He talked about how he felt comforted by the commitment, like we have made the ultimate commitment, and I think security in that sense is like: We have agreed that we are in this, we have agreed in front of our family, in front of the state (which is a weird thing to do), and therefore, even when things are absolutely awful, we are not leaving. I think that’s what people find appealing, security-wise? It’s less about like, I’ve trapped you, and more about like, we’ve made the biggest leap together. But we hear a lot about the benefits of marriage, and I don’t think we hear enough about the benefits of choosing to have a relationship that's not consummated in marriage.
Leslie: (laughs)
Me: Do people say that? "Consummated in marriage?"
Leslie: No.
Me: (laughs) We don’t hear about that side! Which is like: What might it mean to have a relationship that is committed and secure by choice and through your own way of expressing those things? What does it mean to commit to your other relationships and take them just as seriously, and not feel like you're placing your romantic relationship on such a pedestal and sort of closing yourself off into this family unit? What might it mean to think of your community as more expansive and connective, and not so bifurcated across romantic and platonic lines? I understand the draw of marriage, but I want to hear more about—or I think we should have more of a narrative around the benefits of the alternative.
Leslie: Yeah! And I think the more people who can explore alternative lives, the more that people even younger than you can see that there are options for them.
Me: Yes.
Leslie: You know, my parents are still married. Andy’s parents are still married. I think there is a level of security, but I don’t think that our relationship would be different if we had not gotten married. The thing that really changes your relationship is a kid. But I will tell you, you don’t snap your fingers and you’re married and your relationship feels different, at least not to me!
Me: Some people think it does feel different! But some people don’t, like our friend recently said it’s literally the same. She was like, “We had a big party and now we are just back to the same.”
Leslie: Right right! I mean, again, I don’t want to conflate marriage and weddings because they’re in some ways aligned but in a lot of ways separate.
Me: Totally.
Leslie: But I will say, as someone who is an introvert, I was nervous about being the center of attention, but it was actually amazing to have everyone we cared about be together for a positive celebration, you know? And that was something that I didn’t expect to actually enjoy as much as I did, because that is so not my speed. But you don’t have to get married to have a party with your friends and family. You don’t!
Me: Yeah, like why don’t we do it for birthdays or anniversaries? "We’ve been together for 10 years! We are going to throw a huge party and we’re all going to give speeches about how much we love our relationship." In general I think the emphasis on it in our culture has left a lot of people out—people are like, It’s so nice to have everyone around you to celebrate your life. And it’s like, so if you’re not in a relationship, you just don’t get that?
Leslie: (laughs) Right! I think there’s a lot of room to create new narratives and new ways of expressing things and thinking about old traditions and saying, “Maybe this isn’t a fit for me.” I think that's really valuable. One of the things that’s really amazing about getting older is seeing things changing. It’s incredible to watch. And I’m not saying I grew up thinking this was my only path, I really didn’t, but I guess the question I had—it wasn’t even a question—it was more like, "Why wouldn’t we?"
The full conversation about relationships, marriage, and what it’s like to have a kid when you’re ambivalent about it, will be out Tuesday 9 a.m. And since a few newer readers have mentioned that my subscription options aren’t totally clear (which honestly makes me relieved because I feel like I’m always saying this?): It costs $5/mo of $50/year to become a paying subscriber of Maybe Baby, and when you do you gain access to my monthly Q&A column, Dear Baby (runs the last Sunday of the month, i.e. next week) and my weekly Tuesday podcast, which is a mixed bag of interviews, pop culture, and mental breakdowns. Allow this viral tweet to explain:
Liv said it!!! No but I totally get it if you don’t pay. The little charges add up/who needs more content. But a heartfelt thanks to those who do. You keep this engine running and free of referral links and elaborate essays about Blue Apron Casper sheets. Also: If you got an email from me last week that I gifted you a comped subscription, that’s because I did another batch of comps! (I give away 10 free subs to those who can’t afford one for every 100 I get. The link to add your name to the list is at the bottom of every email.)
If you want to peek at what my podcast is like, I released all my 2020 episodes for free last December and linked to all of them here.
1. “What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?” a piece by Rhaina Cohen for The Atlantic that expresses some of what I said above, but more eloquently and with fascinating examples.
“Many of those who place a friendship at the center of their life find that their most significant relationship is incomprehensible to others. But these friendships can be models for how we as a society might expand our conceptions of intimacy and care.”
2. This paparazzi shot I took of a corgi at the dog park the other day when another patron overheard me commenting on his fluffy butt and revealed I was looking at none other than @madmax_fluffyroad.
3. “What People Are Really Doing When They Play Hard to Get,” a fascinating newsletter by Luke Burgis, that I came across randomly (maybe a roundup from Substack?) and have been thinking about ever since.
4. The ecstasy of unfollowing three annoying people on Twitter.
5. Devs on Hulu. Feels good to be the last person to watch a show…I must confess that despite a few gripes I liked it.
6. “Only Fans Isn’t Just Porn ;)” by Charlotte Shane for The New York Times, about the implications of OnlyFans’ pandemic success.
7. Miley Cyrus’s Bangerz album, for reasons I can’t quite explain…truly an outrageous work of music from 2013. Made me lol.
8. This tweet, which made me feel so genuinely good inside that I might write an essay about it:
9. This TokTok of cows attending a concert.
10. “Another Weekend” by Ade, which I danced to at his release party recently and think you should dance to, too.
11. “A Clockwork Orange Made Me Long to Be a Monster. But It Only Saw Me as a Victim,” a critique of A Clockwork Orange by Faith Merino for Electric Literature, that helped me understand my strong aversion to the movie.
12. More chocolate chip cookies…again care of my brother. This time a recipe by Jacques Torres, and now I’m questioning all of my recipe loyalties because I think I’m just obsessed with chocolate chip cookies.
13. The Best Time We Ever Had by Claire Lombardo. A book I bought by accident (thought it was something else) but found to be genuinely sweet and easy to read. Reminded me of the low-stakes page-turners I read in college.
14. “Sinead O’Connor Remembers Things Differently,” by Amanda Hess for The New York Times, which made me love Sinead O’Connor.
15. This incredible video of composer Angelo Badalamenti explaining how he wrote the theme music for Twin Peaks with David Lynch:
Thank you for reading!
Haley
p.s. I’ve gotten more emails than usual lately about people having trouble receiving all my newsletters! If that’s you, or you have any other questions, a heads up that you can always email support@substackinc.com with your questions—they are super responsive and fast! You’re always free to reach out to me as well, but I usually end up connecting people to the Support team.
This month a portion of subscriber proceeds will be redistributed to Covenant House, New York City’s largest provider serving homeless youths.
Give me feedback • Subscribe • Request a free subscription • Ask Dear Baby a question