35 Comments

Haley! So strange that you’ve decided to discuss anti-natalism, I’ve known of this school of thought for a while but I’ve been reading Emil Cioran’s “the trouble with being born” (I think this is the official English title, but I’m reading it in French, where it’s called “l’inconvénient d’être né”, quite literally, “the disadvantage of being born”) and it’s very much the main idea. It’s a collection of aphorisms, and I think a few of them are expressed in jest, at least to some degree, because as you have noted it’s impossible not to see the humor in a live person earnestly lamenting the very state in which they choose to remain (suicide is always an option). I must say I’ve always felt deeply embarrassed by the degree to which this philosophy resonates with me. My father tells me that when I was 7, I went up to him and said “Dad, I made a mistake...I was born”. Lol. Maybe I’m more depressed or jaded than I perceive myself to be, but even at my happiest, I can’t help but see the philosophical merit, contrary to you (and every other pundit and journalist who’s ever commented on anti-natalism). I think, on some level, I feel a certain pressure to reject these ideas or to find them ridiculous, and I try not to entertain them. But when I’m honest with myself, I have to admit that I see no real point in all the pain we endure. I can’t romanticize it, and any attempt to inject “nuance”, like you mentioned, by invoking the joy and humor that can be found in spite of the suffering or alongside it, feels like I’m conveniently lying to myself because I’ve been conditioned by society and programmed by billions of year of evolution to hold on to existence with every fibre of my being. It’s also interesting that you mention how much more strongly you’ve felt it when Avi was away and you had to live in “listless solitude”. I’ve been single for three years and I’ve never been lonelier, 8 months into a global pandemic. I would give up a limb to only feel loneliness for two weeks a year. Maybe your relationship status changes your perspective on a lot of things (would a single woman as easily eschew makeup or shaving when there’s no one to validate her attractiveness? I digress...)

That said even when I’ve been in relationships, surrounded by friends and family, I never formed too deep of an attachment to the concept of being alive. Yet I am still here with no intention of going anywhere. It will all be over soon anyway. Like Dorothy Parker said, “you might as well live”.

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I totally understand where you're coming from! I definitely understand the more existential loneliness that doesn't necessarily relate to solitude, but something deeper. I think that modern life is uniquely set up to isolate us emotionally/mentally (if not also physically) and it's in conflict with our evolutionary needs to commune together. I wonder if the loneliness you're talking about is also a natural consequence of late capitalism? (I talked about this alienation a bit in my last podcast!) And also the fact that we've made marriage/relationships an organizing principle in society, which leaves so many out. Like you said I'm also lucky, and due to my privileges/general life station am able to more easily isolate/analyze my sources of pain as separate from my general experience. Either way I definitely agree with some of Benatar's claims about life being largely about suffering, I think I just disagree with his assertion that it's inherent to human life versus consequential to corruption/exploitation.

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Also thank you for this whole comment and ending it on that Dorothy Parker quote. (I think you have access to my podcast but if you don't and want to, lmk!)

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Wait also I can't believe you said that to your dad at 7 😭 I don't mean to downplay the possibility of your natural outlook! Are you an artist of some kind? Feels like a very artistic perspective

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Lol 😭 I’m not an artist no, I wish! I used to write, but I haven’t in a while, one of the many reasons I love reading this newsletter every Sunday; the stimulation I get from it isn’t too distant from how I used to feel when I wrote. I think it helps that we gravitate towards many of the same themes. And yes I have access to your podcasts! I need to do some catching up as I’m not a “natural” podcast listener and now that I’m no longer commuting to work, they don’t have a dedicated portion of time in my day.

Thanks for your reply to my comment, I would be really interested to see you flesh out this idea of loneliness as a consequence of late capitalism. I’ve read about it before, and I agree on a macro level, but I’m not sure how it translates into individual experiences. For instance, I read that article you linked a few weeks ago on the case against marriage, and while I agree with much of the premise, I’m not entirely sure I’m on board with the conclusion that we’d all be better off if we moved from an individualistic way of life into collectivism. Maybe because I come from a background that has historically relied on community pretty heavily, I know how often it can turn oppressive, and I also know that not only does a collectivist framework not preclude tribalism or selfishness, it often encourages them. That said I totally agree hyper individualistic cultures in the West (I live in Europe, where it’s less of an issue than in the US) are doing a lot of harm and aren’t sustainable long-term.

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I feel like I should leave this really great Mladen Dolar lecture which is relevant to the idea of never having been born.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2l8hZkskKI

He also mentions the Jewish joke "better to have never been born, unfortunately that only happens to barely one in a hundred thousand people". The point is that by definition, no one is around to have never been born. Suicide isn't a way out either: you can die for sure, you can't be un-born.

(I also thought it was a little unfortunate, in 2020, to pick getting locked out of the flat or being alone for two weeks as examples of "bad shit happens! but good stuff comes of it! therefore nuance!" and kind of despise the deployment of nuance and perspective in that way)

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I picked those examples as a way to address his assertion that even a happy life is awful because it’s essentially just a series of inconveniences. I think it makes more sense to test his theory against the quotidian side of life versus the utter despair gripping the world right now. I’ve also written enough about that lately and feel like we could all use a break

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Fair enough, I don't know why I was even that bothered, I guess there's a tonal breeziness sometimes that seems inappropriate to the subject matter, like maybe you're a super serious person who's afraid to appear too serious? It's like your subject matter has caught up to the fact you no longer work at Man Repeller but the superficial parts haven't yet, like communication and tone. I mean, you don't have to be polarised between tragedy/pathos and 'look at this interesting thing I just found!' quirk. Especially as your writing is super good when you forget about those (and like you're not super given to the former). I mean it's something noticeable in a lot of women's and LGBT publishing: it's either all about! Shopping! or relashionships or like why Billie Eilish is important, but with ironic distance, or it's asking Black trans women about how many times they were raped and murdered, or just a mention of them piously here and there. And for a start: they should get to write about fashion and art or even their favourite cookies. But also, argh, it's like, does it all have to be feelings, anecdotes and how to be or not be a consumer.

So when you introduce an idea that's just whether to be or not be (ahem, avoiding the obvious quote), a lot of the trappings of women's media can be super jarring and seem a bit solipsistic.

Though regarding your point more specifically, most stuff worth doing is inconvenient, and I'm not sure 'worth living' and 'convenient' are the same. And not to be solipsistic myself but, if you have adhd, most things you want to do, your brain will tell you to do it, at which point you're like 'you're not the boss of me bitch' and it becomes like scaling mount Everest. So yeah if I avoided inconvenience I might as well go sit in a coffin. Except that sounds like a lot of work.

Anyway I hope this wasn't overly complainy - it was meant critically but it's mainly because, well, you pick topics I give a shit about.

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Your writing about anti-natalism reminded me of this book called I, Rigoberta Menchu about an indigenous Mayan woman living in what is now Guatemala. In the beginning of the book she writes about how when a baby is born in Mayan culture (and they have many babies), the family and community all come together to mourn and grieve, because the baby is going to endure so much suffering throughout its life. That framing has become really important to me in thinking about having my own children; it feels like a way to avoid the Cartesian rigidity that anti-natalism asserts, without putting one's head in the sand and avoiding all the *very legitimate* indications that we should not be bringing more humans onto this planetary precipice with us, only to peer over into the abyss.

I'm always here for a Goldfinch quote...thanks for adding so much joy and substance to my Sunday mornings!

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Wow that Mayan ritual

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this main piece is such a beautiful collection of thoughts, so it feels disrespectful (but also entertaining hopefully) that the strongest reaction I had to the newsletter this week was "actually SO MUCH happened in the butter video?!" (which I watched last night and have available for immediate recollection) the metaphorical seagulls! the 10 kilos of butter rolling! lol let me calm down

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LOL. Ok maybe you're right??

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Anti-natalism sounds like my thoughts when I'm deeply depressed. It makes me wonder if Benatar has depression and/or a bad life or bad disposition. Maybe that's reductive. It's just hard to believe someone's life could be so joyless they are preaching the end of humanity.

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I completely agree that it sounds like depression! Have the same fear about being reductive but it def reminds me of my inner monologue at times when I'm depressed

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One of the best things I read in lockdown, about the greenland shark - https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n09/katherine-rundell/consider-the-greenland-shark

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Omg I just got so excited about this can’t wait to read!!

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I read that article months (years? who knows) ago and have been thinking about it ever since! It was especially on my mind this weekend so seeing your newsletter this morning really tripped me up! How did you know!? I can't deny that I get a thrill from scaring my family when I tell them that I sometimes align myself with this school of thought but it also scares me personally sometimes that I can drift into it and agree with it so easily. Thank you for putting all of that into words. Feeling seen, as they say!

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That’s so weird!!! I guess it makes sense that some are reflecting on his ideas when life is so awful for so many at the same time?

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Haley, today’s essay made me so happy I signed up to support you! There are many things I will go back to, but the whole anti-natalist discussion is reduced in my mind (too simplistically I know) to being a pessimist or an optimist. I have thought about that a lot in my life, being the product of a pessimistic father and an optimistic mother. I take after my mother, which has been the easier path, while my brother took after my father. I was married for 28 years to a pessimist. Now, I am with much more of an optimistic man. Life is complex indeed, but sometimes breaking it down into simple terms can make the days easier...

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Totally see what you mean! I have fairly optimistic parents which I’m sure affected how I see the world. Also thank you for the support!

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Thanks Haley, I felt really engaged reading this particular newsletter! And I always appreciate adding another week of content to my Pocket.

This pain/pleasure paradox has occupied a lot of my conversation this year, and I’m curious: how do you think your upbringing adds to your outlook now, if at all? I recall in your podcast with Amalie that you were invested in the church, before leaving at the threshold of adulthood. Benatar’s piece pulled up a lot of fascination/frustration in that they’re fundamental grapplings, but I wholeheartedly disagree haha. Anyway, I’m very intrigued as a secular-to-Christian to someone who has run the opposite path, but landed at a similar answer!

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Also, if you have more room for anti-natalism, the film Capernaum is wonderful. I thought Labaki did a very compassionate job.

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Adding this movie to my list! Also this is a really interesting question. One idea that comes to mind is the difference between my secular POV and my mom's more religious one, which is that she's really put off by nihilism and the idea that life is inherently meaningless, whereas I'm really drawn to that idea that we create our own meaning. But I think that we are ultimately saying the same thing? We both like the idea of being good to ourselves/others/the world, but I'm more drawn to the notion that we choose it, versus do I t because of god or some kind of divine morality. I'm not actually sure how she feels on this now since she's gotten less religious as she ages, but I wonder if you're talking about a similar split, whereby we are coming to similar conclusions but getting there different ways?

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I think so! That split is funny in a way, because it makes me think of the optimism/pessimism divide: if you don’t subscribe to religion, choosing goodness in the endless possibility of meaningful lives you could lead is very “glass half full”. In my mind it seems to flip in believing in god, as much of the good in this world you’d experience comes from giving and giving up; at this time in the world I figure most would see that more “glass half empty”. That’s what often makes me wonder how we can continue moving in a progressive direction, when one aim is splintered into so many paths.

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There are much more eloquent things I could say about how I enjoyed this newsletter but instead, I'll share that all I could think about while reading about the octopus was 'live fast die young bad girls do it well'

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Re: locking yourself out, I did the exact same thing a few days ago. My housemates were all out (despite there being a city-wide stay at home order where I live in Melbourne, Australia) and I went outside to get a delivery and was holding the door open with my foot. I got distracted when the postman yelled at me from across the street to check the name and the door slammed shut. Had a moment of, "oh fuck" and paced around the backyard for a few minutes before remembering how easy my house would be to break into and climbed in my window by taking the fly screen off. Entering month four of a harsh lockdown and suddenly locked out! The irony is not lost on me. Thanks for an incredible newsletter, a lot of these themes hit hard this week.

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I can't overstate how grateful I am for today's newsletter. I'm nearing the end of the first trimester of my first pregnancy, and have been really struggling with the idea that I'm essentially forcing life on someone who didn't consent to it and may not have chosen it if they could've had a say. It's been pretty overwhelming to be ruminating on whether life is worth it, while I'm living one and also making one. I've tried to have this conversation with people I'm close to, but it doesn't seem to resonate with most of them, so it was really gratifying and comforting to read your words today (and those of everyone leaving comments!), especially because I respect and trust you so much at this point, having appreciated your writing and learned so much from you over the past few years.

I haven't read Benatar's piece, and I wasn't aware of anti-natalism as a concept, but I agree that thinking about life experiences as though they're tallies in a Good column and a Bad column, resulting in some kind of net score, is reductive and not really a useful way to evaluate experiences. One thing I keep coming back to is "This Is Water," the commencement speech David Foster Wallace gave, which discusses re-framing how you see the world in a way that's empathizing, unifying, and life-affirming. Seems like a potentially worthwhile counterpoint to Benatar's.

I know I'll continue to struggle with this question, which is okay, but I'm grateful that your words helped me re-introduce a little nuance into the questions I'm struggling with, as they so often do. Thank you!!

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Not sure if you’ve mentioned this in other newsletters, but have you read the new Eula Biss book “Having and Being Had?” It’s kind of a treatise about living/making art in capitalism but a lot of it is also about the intertwined experiences of material comfort/discomfort. It strikes me as a sort of lower stakes companion to the pleasure/pain discussion. The form of the book intertwines the personal and embodied experience with historical precedents and sort of reminds me of Maggie Nelson, which is always a plus in my mind. I think it might resonate with you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I havent but it's on my list!!! And your description makes me want to read it more

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Benatar makes me think:

1. is he trolling (even though you said he isn't?) and just showing that anti-natalism is logically coherent

2. the word philosopher is a great distractor and in fact "anyone" navel-gazing can be called a philosopher even if they're not contributing anything helpful at all/only feeding their own self-importance

3. what is this guy's personal life. if he truly believes this and has all the math to prove it, i still have the amateur hunch that his argument would simply fall apart if he experienced something as pedestrian and cliche as "true love," to be able to feel it romantically, platonically, familially.

4. anti-natalism reminds me of reading The Stranger in my HS senior English class, tbh, it did resonate with me then, and that's probably the last time something like anti-natalism would have resonated.

I think ever since becoming an adult (12 years ago) I generally like the idea of candy more than I actually like eating it. The childlike effortlessness/unawareness of picking out gummies one by one sitting cross-legged in pastel sweats staring at a laptop is a real dream aesthetic. I LOVE chips, though. Can't stop loving chips.

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Haley! I'm 36 and I didn't realize that growing up is about making mistakes, not avoiding them... my mind is sort of blown. All of a sudden I'm wondering, were all those mistakes good? I thought they were bad. But they taught me so much and got me where I am today. Who am I? What is going on? I think it will take a while to sink in. Thanks, as usual xx

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Benatar was my undergraduate philosophy lecturer in Cape Town! He notoriously knew every person in his lecture by name (there were often 500+ in first year Phil class). I thought about him recently and tried to google him and discovered a weird conspiracy that his image does not appear anywhere on the internet. He also always always wears a peak cap. Funny that you mentioned my octopus teacher in the same essay as it’s also based on Cape Town.

Thanks for doing what you do! 😊

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The article by Sasha is so great.

Also, I skimmed an article in The Atlantic on Tuesday that had an interestingly relevant sentence about how often it was commented by senators how amazing judicial nominee Barrett is on motherhood and why has it not ever been said about fatherhood in the same context. Or something like that. I would like to read it again but I cannot figure out how to find it on The Atlantic's website. Any tips? Thank you!

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